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REVIEW - Yulong Audio Sabre DA8 Reference DAC - Page 10

post #136 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

It does! Thanks!

So the Phase setting really isn't all that useful for modern music?

In most cases no. It does make vocal and percussions sound different though. Whether you like it or not is up to you.

post #137 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

It does! Thanks!

So the Phase setting really isn't all that useful for modern music?

You could check how "incorrect"/reverse phase affect the sound here

 

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

 

Or another simple thing to try is just reverse the + and - wire of one side of your headphone (I know you're using speaker tap so this is quite easy)

post #138 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaine1711 View Post

You could check how "incorrect"/reverse phase affect the sound here

 

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

 

Or another simple thing to try is just reverse the + and - wire of one side of your headphone (I know you're using speaker tap so this is quite easy)

That's funny, I almost included that exact site in my reply hehe.

post #139 of 1394

Does the DA8 come with any kind of instructions? Or does Yulong just expect us to experiment with different setting on our own to figure out what we like? I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

I only ask because I really like simplicity. I do have 2 different filters on my Concero and it was difficult enough to choose between them. I can only imagine how confused I'm going to be as a DA8 owner if I have all these settings to play with. I can deal with filters now, but all this other stuff is new to me.

 

What's your favorite setting brunk? Just out of curiosity?

post #140 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

Does the DA8 come with any kind of instructions? Or does Yulong just expect us to experiment with different setting on our own to figure out what we like? I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

I only ask because I really like simplicity. I do have 2 different filters on my Concero and it was difficult enough to choose between them. I can only imagine how confused I'm going to be as a DA8 owner if I have all these settings to play with. I can deal with filters now, but all this other stuff is new to me.

 

What's your favorite setting brunk? Just out of curiosity?

My 2 cent 

 

Filter used in the DA8 is the one in the Sabre chip itself, you can see the FR measurement of them on the Weiss dac.

 

Phase is as mentioned above.

 

Jitter Elimination is a wild guess from me, but I guess it's the switch to enable or disable Sabre ARSC. Basically the Sabre has its own SRC -  for low quality digital source. In the end, it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, and most designers have stopped using it. But the gist of it is: with the USB module feeding the dac via I2S, it should be turn off.  Turning it on for SPDIF source might or might not give better sound.

 

Hope the explanation helps. In the end filters/different setting does not make or break the dac -  differences are subtle at best. It just adds something for you to play with. The only Sabre Dacs I've had with no settings to toy with, just plain dac are  the Calyx 24/192 and the Nfb 7.32; if you like that kind of simplicity

post #141 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

Does the DA8 come with any kind of instructions? Or does Yulong just expect us to experiment with different setting on our own to figure out what we like? I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

I only ask because I really like simplicity. I do have 2 different filters on my Concero and it was difficult enough to choose between them. I can only imagine how confused I'm going to be as a DA8 owner if I have all these settings to play with. I can deal with filters now, but all this other stuff is new to me.

 

What's your favorite setting brunk? Just out of curiosity?

I usually prefer:

Input: USB with pins 1 & 4 covered with electrical tape.

Phase: +

Filter: Sharp

Jitter eliminator: bypass

 

If I'm listening louder/longer than usual, or something with alot of high frequency (especially with TH-900) i will put the filter on "Slow".

Classical is by far best with Sharp. I also overall find 24bit material best with Slow, except classical.

 

*Checks box for manual*

 

Yulong actually does include a user manual, but it's mostly specs, layout and graphs. He does however mention two "recommended configurations"

 

I quote from pg. 12. "When using DA8, waiting for it to fully the heat machine has a better sound."

 

Configuration 1:

Phase: +

Filter mode: Sharp

Jitter Eliminator: ON (Provides condensed sound)

Pure DAC Amplifier OFF (Use this setting when connect to amplifier)

 

Configuration 2:

Phase: - (Suitable for early inverse phase records) Just like I mentioned earlier.

Filter mode: Slow (Darker high. Perform)

Jitter Eliminator: Bypass (Bypass jitter eliminator gives softer sound)

 

Cheers,

Brunk

beerchug.gif

post #142 of 1394

Thank you brunk! and also Khaine. I shall not fear complexity I will embrace it. LOL. biggrin.gif (I think I get most of it now)

 

I was looking really hard at the Anedio D2 and now my interest has shifted to the DA8. Newer toy syndrome and also Project86's review has me interested. Also looking at the Yulong power cords and power cleaner thingy. Do they actually help on the DA8?

 

Not sure why I'm so interested in DACs these days... I think the Concero has me hooked.


Edited by M-13 - 8/6/13 at 5:21pm
post #143 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

Thank you brunk! and also Khaine. I shall not fear complexity I will embrace it. LOL. biggrin.gif (I think I get most of it now)

 

I was looking really hard at the Anedio D2 and now my interest has shifted to the DA8. Newer toy syndrome and also Project86's review has me interested. Also looking at the Yulong power cords and power cleaner thingy.

 

Not sure why I'm so interested in DACs these days... I think the Concero has me hooked.

If you want to embrace complexity, I've had a few wolfson dacs that have like 9 different filters settings rolleyes.gif. The Invicta I demoed also have 7 filters I think.

 

The audio-gd Pcm 1704uk dacs also got a crapload of settings in its DSP module.

post #144 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaine1711 View Post

If you want to embrace complexity, I've had a few wolfson dacs that have like 9 different filters settings rolleyes.gif. The Invicta I demoed also have 7 filters I think.

 

The audio-gd Pcm 1704uk dacs also got a crapload of settings in its DSP module.

With Resonessence I have no fear. I would just chose my usual Apodizing filter (same as Concero). LOL. But I would definitely love to hear the other 5 filters to be sure. I love the fact that Resonessence takes time to really explain their filter options and even why one needs a filter to begin with. Their FAQ is quite informative and I actually had fun learning about the history of DACs. I only wish they would make a baby Invicta for under $2000. That would give me a clear upgrade path because I love the Concero so much.


Edited by M-13 - 8/6/13 at 5:43pm
post #145 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post

Thank you brunk! and also Khaine. I shall not fear complexity I will embrace it. LOL. biggrin.gif (I think I get most of it now)

 

I was looking really hard at the Anedio D2 and now my interest has shifted to the DA8. Newer toy syndrome and also Project86's review has me interested. Also looking at the Yulong power cords and power cleaner thingy. Do they actually help on the DA8?

 

Not sure why I'm so interested in DACs these days... I think the Concero has me hooked.

 I have a Monster power conditioner and i find it does make a subtle difference for the better in my system. The most notable improvement was with my Music PC. The only way to know if it helps you is to try one and find out, as people have found a negative, no change, or positive change. My main reason for purchasing however is quality surge protection, it has saved my gear more than once. Actually the Voltage Stabilizer has (2nd paragraph), since i have the power conditioner hooked to it.

 

I also use a Monster Automatic Voltage Stabilizer to protect against brown-outs, which are waaay more common than power surges, plus it helps extend the life of electronics. I got mine for $450 on Ebay. I have heard it in operation countless times (very quiet for a couple seconds).

 

For power cords, i personally have found them an all-or-nothing approach to notice a difference as it's very subtle for me, but again the biggest difference was noticed on my PC. YMMV.


Edited by brunk - 8/6/13 at 5:43pm
post #146 of 1394
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprit View Post

IMO Yulong never thought about galvanic isoltion. Never. I have old email where I asked him directly about galvanic isolation and where he wrote "it is not necessary" wink.gif

 

I just don't get why you can't let this go. How are you to know his motivation? It's already been explained what he did and why he did it. We can agree or disagree with his choices, but why question his motive? Are you insinuating he doesn't know what galvanic isolation means? I just don't understand. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boirefish View Post

I've finally finished scrolling through all the posts and glad everyone is enjoying their DA8's. Contemplating getting one solely for my LCD-2 rev 2's, but the only issue is how the amp component compares. Ideally I'd like to spend no more than $1500, so I was tossing up between getting the newly released conductor SL 1793/9018 which is well priced at $1250/$1550, or the DA8 as an un-amped unit for the semi-long term. 

 

It seems no comparisons between the two have been made so far, which I assumed was due to the fact that their dac sections are not in the same league (favoring DA8?), and similarly for the amp (favoring conductor?).

 

The review mentioned that the DA8's amp section is somewhere between Yulong's $300 and $700 amp offerings, but I'm a tad skeptical after owning a few 2 in 1 units claiming formidable amp sections. As of recent, I'm using the AudioGD NFB10SE, and previous to that the Burson 160Ds.

 

I preferred the 160Ds back in the day, but finances dictated I had to sell it before making another purchase (audio-GD). 

 

Now, the options are: 

 

1. Stay with the NFB10SE 

2. Burson conductor $1250/$1550

3. Second hand Burson 160D/160Ds ~ $600-700

4. DA8 :O $1300 + postage

 

Aesthetically, I like the Bursons, but I'd like to know how these match up from a purely spec/auditory perspective.

 

Thanks!

 

Good question. I personally think the DA8 amp is about as good as the original Burson integrated. The DA8 is slightly less warm, but probably more detailed, and has better volume control too (I hated the relay clicks and lack of volume precision on the Burson). If you've already heard the Burson, like the Burson in terms of sound and looks, then maybe that's the way to go. Nothing wrong with using a slightly older model! Or, there's gotta be a dealer who will sell you one of the Conductor variations with an in home trial period. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by khaine1711 View Post

My 2 cent 

 

Filter used in the DA8 is the one in the Sabre chip itself, you can see the FR measurement of them on the Weiss dac.

 

Phase is as mentioned above.

 

Jitter Elimination is a wild guess from me, but I guess it's the switch to enable or disable Sabre ARSC. Basically the Sabre has its own SRC -  for low quality digital source. In the end, it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, and most designers have stopped using it. But the gist of it is: with the USB module feeding the dac via I2S, it should be turn off.  Turning it on for SPDIF source might or might not give better sound.

 

Hope the explanation helps. In the end filters/different setting does not make or break the dac -  differences are subtle at best. It just adds something for you to play with. The only Sabre Dacs I've had with no settings to toy with, just plain dac are  the Calyx 24/192 and the Nfb 7.32; if you like that kind of simplicity

 
Source on this? I know a few have bypassed it, but I wouldn't say "most" by any stretch. I recall Gordon Rankin from Wavelength being very impressed with it, and Russ White from Twisted Pear Audio was too, but those opinions may have changed recently and I missed it. 
post #147 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

Source on this? I know a few have bypassed it, but I wouldn't say "most" by any stretch. I recall Gordon Rankin from Wavelength being very impressed with it, and Russ White from Twisted Pear Audio was too, but those opinions may have changed recently and I missed it. 

 

http://www.jitter.de/english/howfr.html

 

Quite a long read, but the gist of it is:

 

-ASRC is not a lossless progress, degradation depends on the quality of input/output clocks.

-The jitter at the input will be transformed into noise, and embedded into the signal.

 

It's a mixed bag. I remember when the Sabre first came out and people rave about its "jitter immunity" due to the built-in ASRC (they call it "jitter elimination block" back then). Well we all know how that went - you can't transform a jittery input signal through the ASRC. My interpretation of the whole thing is like:

 

-If you got bad signal/jittery source, ASRC won't fix it (completely)

-If you got quality clock in and out, then ASRC isn't needed. I remember people once asked a Sabre engineer that what if the clocks used in input and output are the same, and he did replied that the ASRC will become redundant.

 

Recently USB modules are so cheap so it makes more sense feeding the dac directly through usb-i2s rather than relying on the ASRC I guess. It's still "always on" on the SPDIF input if one wants to try. People also find generally better result bypassing the ASRC with a good usb-i2s interface though.


Edited by khaine1711 - 8/6/13 at 8:02pm
post #148 of 1394
Thread Starter 
Meh, Charles Altmann... Say no more. I'll just say that most designers still do in fact use the ASRC process inside the ESS DACs, though a few have chosen to go a different route. Altmann favors NOS DACs and that sort of thing, and generally leaves a lot to be desired in terms of technical explanations.

A good analogy for ASRC is video upscaling. You really wanna feed that 480i signal to a native 1080P panel without focusing on a high quality interpolation scheme to fill in the missing data? Good luck with that. Of course, feed it a pristine Blu-ray signal and it no longer needs processing. That analogy works perfectly with what I hear from the DA8 and its jitter feature.
post #149 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

Meh, Charles Altmann... Say no more. I'll just say that most designers still do in fact use the ASRC process inside the ESS DACs, though a few have chosen to go a different route. Altmann favors NOS DACs and that sort of thing, and generally leaves a lot to be desired in terms of technical explanations.

A good analogy for ASRC is video upscaling. You really wanna feed that 480i signal to a native 1080P panel without focusing on a high quality interpolation scheme to fill in the missing data? Good luck with that. Of course, feed it a pristine Blu-ray signal and it no longer needs processing. That analogy works perfectly with what I hear from the DA8 and its jitter feature.

^^^ +1

post #150 of 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaine1711 View Post

You could check how "incorrect"/reverse phase affect the sound here

 

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

 

Or another simple thing to try is just reverse the + and - wire of one side of your headphone (I know you're using speaker tap so this is quite easy)

 

They are not the same thing. The fact that they are called phase does not mean they are the same thing
 
The Absolute phase (what the DAC, pre, etc... can correct)
has nothing to to with the phase corrected when you invert the polarity of one wire
 
Add: most records have the absolute phase inverted

Edited by Esprit - 8/7/13 at 2:40am
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