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Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint - Page 44  

post #646 of 1671

There aren't a lot of us, but we're a happy little family. Agree about the mods.

post #647 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamijoIsMyHero View Post
 

 

 

You can learn and discuss all that in a different forum, one where there is less restriction or mod interferences (I have had more than one moronic interaction with a mod so I know of their faulty work). I just don't understand why headfi only when there are only very few people that posts in this subforum. That is what I mean in "box yourself" or "confining". Is this really the only subforum you guys can find, surely there are more like this with more engaging people that posts actively. Hence, I don't see the point of crying about your experiences reading impressions which you can't relate to.

 

I am a man of science myself and part of the reason I keep checking on headfi is the innovation manufacturers or engineers try to make. Unfortunately, I didn't enroll in audio related engineering so my interests in new audio products is of genuine nature and also since new tech is always interesting anyway. A big one that has intrigued me is the current Oppo headphone and its design. It is unconventional and makes me wonder how it is supposed to sound or offer something different  from the typical planar magnetics. Even before that, planar magnetic design and beyerdynamic tesla tech was interesting as I have never heard of it before as I was used to seeing dynamic drivers. For IEM side, freqphase, multiple BAs and hybrids has peaked my interests. Sure you can assume what they will sound like with a freq response but there are countless that aren't. I get confused as well of the descriptions people use but it is not that big of a deal.

 

If people's impressions bother you, then can try to look or ask for a direct comparisons of products you know well. People will typically try to help you to get a better idea of how it sounds like. There is some merit in direct comparisons given they were reviewed the same way. Just be a decent-friendly person.

 

Also, contrary to the consensus here that refuting claims will get you banned, I see it more often than not that the one that gets banned are brash individuals. I don't take a liking of negative individuals especially when they try to associate themselves to people of science. It gives a lot of bad reputation which is most likely what you experience as a results of trying to provide technical explanations. It is unfortunate to see this is the case in headfi most likely spurred by a few brash individuals acting in the name of science. There is a difference in asserting your refutes with evidence to insulting another of their intelligence or similar acts to prove your point. Bigshot's way in handling the oppo thread was in my opinion the proper way, some of the discussion was just way too off topic

 

Lastly, I don't include products such as 10k cables in mind. If a product tries to sell itself past an already well proven scientific fact or theory, then you can ignore such product and leave the people who enjoy such products at peace. I barely go into the cable section myself. How hard is it to just leave people alone? There is no need to patronize people behind their backs or threads which they will never check. I am saying this based on my personal sets of ethics. Sorry, if that offends any of you.

 

 

 

Sorry, English is not my first language and sometimes my grammar is messed up. I try to explain myself better above.


Hey, your English seems quite good to me.  Wakibaki wasn't referring to your English just the idea we are the confined ones ( I believe don't wish to put words in his mouth if they are wrong). 

 

Now sometimes I can be reasonably beguiling other times after years and years of the same tired old arguments I lack patience.  And with some people I just don't care to bother.  I am sure I seem too mean sometimes.  Not saying that is a good example, just a bit of an explanation, and only in regard to myself.  I have asked before what is the kind friendly way to tell someone they are wrong or don't understand what they are claiming because their claims are wrong?  There are some better ways than others, but in the end people don't wish to be told that.  They wish to revert to "my opinion is as good as everyone elses"  idea.  Sorry, but sometimes that simply isn't so.  And not saying I know it all, I don't.  Most of what I know by far I learned from others.  But trying to figure out technical things related to well understood physics doesn't help if you insist on magical results.  Trying avoid all the top ten regular counter-arguments here.  I will touch on one more.  No matter what you say someone will ask as if the ultimate arbiter "how would you know you haven't heard it?".  Well some claims, with some other information don't require hearing to refute.  And hearing is limited in its discriminating limits in many ways. 

 

So yeah, Bigshot does a good job, better than I about stuff.  I like Wakibaki's no BS, no-nonsense approach, but he has been banned a time or two as a result.  Wrongly in my opinion.

 

I do feel a little slighted by your statement, "Just be a decent-friendly person."  From what I have seen most are.  When you disagree there is some slight conflict and I see no evidence those of a differing approach are more decent or more friendly.  There is just more of them. So easier to find agreement as a group pursuing good sound in a way no one can agree or disagree with in any meaningful way.  Also a way that pretty much gets you nowhere.   I don't see a lot of patronizing posts behind people's backs here.  Mostly, when allowed, the discussion is factual and helpful to each other to understand things. 

 

As for missing innovative things, I do read some other forums. Especially in transducers it is potentially a great time for all.  As for getting people to discuss who can compare equipment like or similar to what I have used it has limited benefits.  When I ask about headphone X vs headphone A and get told you will never know what it is capable of sounding like until you get expensive uber-cable B to connect to it......well what am I to make of that?  I have been there and done that in that world with those ideas.  Don't need to waste time, money or effort doing it anymore.  Not crying about the existence of such comments, just not interested in them either. 

 

There are surprisingly few forums you can post simply in a rational manner.  You will either get booted for being disruptive (even when decent and friendly posting simply what you think without being argumentative to others).  Or people ridicule you as not having good hearing, not having good equipment, not knowing good sound or not spending enough money (no Big Boy toys??). 

post #648 of 1671

I've been banned wongly too. I've generated enough page views for this site that they should be paying me instead of abusing me, but I don't take it personally any more.

post #649 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

I've been banned wongly too. I've generated enough page views for this site that they should be paying me instead of abusing me, but I don't take it personally any more.


Must have been when I was not much involved on this site.  Though a member for long I didn't visit it much for many years. 

 

I know what you mean.  Another site I frequented more I have a few threads I started which were among the most participated in and longest running of any there.  Generated tremendous hits.  Yet I believe most people there would be happy for me to disappear.  A fellow poster in my defense after I was being called a troll, did say I must be a popular one based upon the response to my threads and other comments. 

 

Controversy always does generate views.  Not the reason I post anything, but obvious in hindsight it is true.  Bigshot don't need no big boy toys to be a worthwhile poster. 

post #650 of 1671

I gots BIG SHOT toys!

post #651 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 


Hey, your English seems quite good to me.  Wakibaki wasn't referring to your English just the idea we are the confined ones ( I believe don't wish to put words in his mouth if they are wrong). 

 

Now sometimes I can be reasonably beguiling other times after years and years of the same tired old arguments I lack patience.  And with some people I just don't care to bother.  I am sure I seem too mean sometimes.  Not saying that is a good example, just a bit of an explanation, and only in regard to myself.  I have asked before what is the kind friendly way to tell someone they are wrong or don't understand what they are claiming because their claims are wrong?  There are some better ways than others, but in the end people don't wish to be told that.  They wish to revert to "my opinion is as good as everyone elses"  idea.  Sorry, but sometimes that simply isn't so.  And not saying I know it all, I don't.  Most of what I know by far I learned from others.  But trying to figure out technical things related to well understood physics doesn't help if you insist on magical results.  Trying avoid all the top ten regular counter-arguments here.  I will touch on one more.  No matter what you say someone will ask as if the ultimate arbiter "how would you know you haven't heard it?".  Well some claims, with some other information don't require hearing to refute.  And hearing is limited in its discriminating limits in many ways. 

 

So yeah, Bigshot does a good job, better than I about stuff.  I like Wakibaki's no BS, no-nonsense approach, but he has been banned a time or two as a result.  Wrongly in my opinion.

 

I do feel a little slighted by your statement, "Just be a decent-friendly person."  From what I have seen most are.  When you disagree there is some slight conflict and I see no evidence those of a differing approach are more decent or more friendly.  There is just more of them. So easier to find agreement as a group pursuing good sound in a way no one can agree or disagree with in any meaningful way.  Also a way that pretty much gets you nowhere.   I don't see a lot of patronizing posts behind people's backs here.  Mostly, when allowed, the discussion is factual and helpful to each other to understand things. 

 

As for missing innovative things, I do read some other forums. Especially in transducers it is potentially a great time for all.  As for getting people to discuss who can compare equipment like or similar to what I have used it has limited benefits.  When I ask about headphone X vs headphone A and get told you will never know what it is capable of sounding like until you get expensive uber-cable B to connect to it......well what am I to make of that?  I have been there and done that in that world with those ideas.  Don't need to waste time, money or effort doing it anymore.  Not crying about the existence of such comments, just not interested in them either. 

 

There are surprisingly few forums you can post simply in a rational manner.  You will either get booted for being disruptive (even when decent and friendly posting simply what you think without being argumentative to others).  Or people ridicule you as not having good hearing, not having good equipment, not knowing good sound or not spending enough money (no Big Boy toys??). 

 

I have seen posts where people don't want to believe factual arguments. I simply take note to ignore those people afterwards including their impressions as it would be too heavily biased in expectations. This is also what I do if they are cable believers.

 

What I meant by being decent when interacting is to avoid pushing level matching or DBT tests too authoritatively when asking for things such as comparisons or dismiss a review since it does not meet proper test methods. I don't mean in argument terms (see my English is not good at times still). In my opinion it is disrespectful to the reviewer, especially those that are just enthusiastic about the product and took the time to write a review and comparison. I have found that the best way is to take everything with very little truth unless you have found a reviewer that matches your experience with a certain product and somewhat describes what they have heard reflect similarly to what you have heard. This is why impression, even though they vary subjectively, is important when looking for reviewers and a rough description of what the headphone's sound signature is like.

 

It is unfortunate that there isn't a bigger forum of this kind. I don't think that you have to spend much to share experiences with others. I have heard other more expensive headphones and other various types of headphones just to get a feel of what people talk about and in my opinion that is enough to determine if they are desirable or match what people hear to what I heard. I think people just like an interaction with others that have made an effort in trying out various headphones or equipment. This is a headphone enthusiast forum after all and such trying out different headphones is a good thing.

 

I might also add, reviews or impressions where there is a large introduction on the product, much like what project86 does, is insightful on the company producing the headphone and its quality. Reviews can offer more than sound impressions.

 

EDIT: oh I just see now, you have been here a long time. In which case what I say is probably what you have already known for a long time.


Edited by KamijoIsMyHero - 4/16/14 at 9:30pm
post #652 of 1671

Level matching is massively important. A slight difference can totally throw off a comparison test. It doesn't have to necessarily be measured by a machine though. Within tolerances of human hearing is fine.

post #653 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamijoIsMyHero View Post
 

 

I have seen posts where people don't want to believe factual arguments. I simply take note to ignore those people afterwards including their impressions as it would be too heavily biased in expectations. This is also what I do if they are cable believers.

 

What I meant by being decent when interacting is to avoid pushing level matching or DBT tests too authoritatively when asking for things such as comparisons or dismiss a review since it does not meet proper test methods. I don't mean in argument terms (see my English is not good at times still). In my opinion it is disrespectful to the reviewer, especially those that are just enthusiastic about the product and took the time to write a review and comparison. I have found that the best way is to take everything with very little truth unless you have found a reviewer that matches your experience with a certain product and somewhat describes what they have heard reflect similarly to what you have heard. This is why impression, even though they vary subjectively, is important when looking for reviewers and a rough description of what the headphone's sound signature is like.

 

It is unfortunate that there isn't a bigger forum of this kind. I don't think that you have to spend much to share experiences with others. I have heard other more expensive headphones and other various types of headphones just to get a feel of what people talk about and in my opinion that is enough to determine if they are desirable or match what people hear to what I heard. I think people just like an interaction with others that have made an effort in trying out various headphones or equipment. This is a headphone enthusiast forum after all and such trying out different headphones is a good thing.

 

I might also add, reviews or impressions where there is a large introduction on the product, much like what project86 does, is insightful on the company producing the headphone and its quality. Reviews can offer more than sound impressions.

 

EDIT: oh I just see now, you have been here a long time. In which case what I say is probably what you have already known for a long time.


Well level matching is simply of central and over-riding importance.  It just is.  Without it differences must be truly gross to be noted with any accuracy and reliability.  Like a highly bloated bass or super hyped or super rolled off treble.  For finer comparison you must have level matching.  Even in sighted, uncontrolled casual comparisons with friends when I get them to level match it has made them stop and say "not so different as I thought".  So do I throw that out just for friendliness sake?  Or do I without being abrasive keep reminding everyone that level matching will clear some things up so please do it? 

 

I believe if I can get only one important thing across to people about comparing audio equipment, the necessity of level matching would be the most worthwhile. 

 

Now headphones in some ways are the hardest thing to compare in all of audio in my opinion.  The measurements tell you less than with any other component.  Frequency response effects are the most notable thing in the sound signature.  Any headphone sits on your ear or in your ear canal a bit differently than someone else.  Which can make for a different sound character at the finer levels of discrimination.  And yet more than any other component listening to other people's impression in general of the sound signature may be most valuable.  So narrowing the field as to what to audition is quite useful.  It is all the turmoil over all the other parts that simply interfere with that.

 

 

post #654 of 1671
There's something I am curious about... Here in sound science, we seem to have a steady stream of buffoons who bounce in acting like they know it all, but in reality don't know anything. They all start out pompous, then get mad when we gently correct them, then start throwing insults around while announcing that *we're* being rude to them. Then they walk off in a huff.

This seems to be a pattern. Are these people just not the sharpest knife in the drawer, or is this some elaborate trolling technique? It's gotten so I can't even separate these people in my head. Are they all the same person? Why do they come into the sound science forum if sound science makes them mad? It makes no sense to me.
post #655 of 1671

Why they come to enlighten us benighted souls.  We haven't heard what they have or we would believe what they do.  Or so it seems to me.

post #656 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

There's something I am curious about... Here in sound science, we seem to have a steady stream of buffoons who bounce in acting like they know it all, but in reality don't know anything. They all start out pompous, then get mad when we gently correct them, then start throwing insults around while announcing that *we're* being rude to them. Then they walk off in a huff.

This seems to be a pattern. Are these people just not the sharpest knife in the drawer, or is this some elaborate trolling technique? It's gotten so I can't even separate these people in my head. Are they all the same person? Why do they come into the sound science forum if sound science makes them mad? It makes no sense to me.

It's worse than that, and I presume I am not in the aforementioned category.

 

The buffoons then go into the wider community and 'represent' objectivist points of view, which creates distrust toward any scientific point of view.  I am convinced that part of the resistance encountered is due to prior experiences with bad-players who create all sorts of drama.

 

I will work on a regression to illustrate (just kidding)  :biggrin:

post #657 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

I've been banned wongly too. I've generated enough page views for this site that they should be paying me instead of abusing me, but I don't take it personally any more.

 

Nah, you're funneling page views to the wrong section. :D

post #658 of 1671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Nah, you're funneling page views to the wrong section. biggrin.gif

Now that you mention it, it explains the situation perfectly.
post #659 of 1671
That PM-1 thread is a hoot Bigshot. Maybe post the below image in there lol.



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post #660 of 1671
I want my stereo system to have all the big numbers in it!
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