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Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint - Page 36

post #526 of 843
Mmk cool, I'll definitely take a look at these. Thanks for the information!
I meant to ask what a physical op-amp looks like inside and what's in this "magic black box." From that Google search, it looks like the triangles in circuit diagrams representing amps are really just a bunch of transistors?


On a different note, I'm browsing through HD Tracks' "audiophile picks" music selection and there are a lot of really great-sounding albums released under the Water Lily Acoustics label.
HD Tracks offers them at 24/88 though...I have to wonder where they got these so-called HD masters. From Water Lily Acoustics' website, they sell Red Book CDs and SACDs, neither of which use 24/88. confused_face_2.gif

Maybe they ripped the SACD's DSD layer and converted it to 24/88 PCM? Why 24/88 though?

http://www.hdtracks.com/audiophile-picks/tabula-rasa
Edited by miceblue - 1/11/14 at 11:54pm
post #527 of 843

No way to know what the master is. Even HDTracks has admitted they just take what they're given. Doesn't matter though because a well mastered redbook CD will sound just as good as 24/88 to human ears.

post #528 of 843
You mean "normal" human ears right bigshot? I mean, we audiophiles are obviously a cut above mere humans. :-P


In all seriousness though. I plan to do some experimenting in the near future, where I finally pay the $$ to get some of these super high bitrate files and do some transcoding to put to rest the final few questions I have about their legitimacy. I hear differences in my few SACDs but they are minor and I suspect all due to the mastering on said albums.
post #529 of 843
With a SACD player playing between the SACD 2-channel DSD and CD 16/44 layers, the SACD definitely sounded different and more spacious.
post #530 of 843

The mastering is rarely the same between the redbook and sacd layer on hybrid disks. The only SACD hybrid I could find with identical mastering was on the Pentatone label.

post #531 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinarc View Post

You mean "normal" human ears right bigshot? I mean, we audiophiles are obviously a cut above mere humans. :-P


In all seriousness though. I plan to do some experimenting in the near future, where I finally pay the $$ to get some of these super high bitrate files and do some transcoding to put to rest the final few questions I have about their legitimacy. I hear differences in my few SACDs but they are minor and I suspect all due to the mastering on said albums.


I could save you the trouble I think.  I have done that.  Your ears aren't mine of course.  I have a few high bit rate files.  Have transcoded them to lower sample rates or different formats.  They all sound the same to me.


As Big Shot said, mastering is the difference.  Almost always the high bitrate stuff is also remastered.  Heck some of it is from 44khz masters even. 

 

So after a few tests for my own proof to myself, when the high bitrate sites have something I value either for better mastering (I hope) or something I don't have then I get the lowest bitrate (usually cheaper too) available. 

post #532 of 843

Sometimes I feel I'm caught in a time loop.

 

Last year or the year before that I was still writing the same arguments, because they are constant and unchanging. No matter how much you try, there's always someone or the other who'll challenge science against his ears and start an argument.

 

Its getting tiring now. I'm thinking of creating some kind of automatic response algorithm that can reply to queries.

post #533 of 843
Creating an auto-reply algorithm? That's some dedication there, most people just give up and stop trying to help.
post #534 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinarc View Post

Creating an auto-reply algorithm? That's some dedication there, most people just give up and stop trying to help.

Nah. It's not as hard as it seems. A few key technical terms and you can know what the question is about.

Lets see...a good night's sleep has done wonders. Maybe I won't retire so soon.
post #535 of 843
Y'all just need to relax...
post #536 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Y'all just need to relax...

That guy makes some weird videos.  Thanks for sharing :) 

post #537 of 843
I'm confused. I was using the dynamic range meter tool available here:
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

And it says it only works for 16/44 files with the offline tool. HD tracks seem to work so I tried out a new album I bought. The Objective DAC doesn't natively decode 24/88 files, but the DR tool did its thing and this was the output: DR Meter Test for 24/88 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.37 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR6            -0.10 dB        -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR5            -0.10 dB        -8.19 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================


Okay, that's cool and all. So I decided to go to the DR database and see the different DR ratings for the different versions of the song. The same album from the same website was uploaded already and the numbers differed from mine. I decided to down-sample my 24/88 files to 24/44 since the ODAC can natively decode that. After running the DR tool again, I get this output: DR Meter Test for 24/44 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            over            -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            over            -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            over            -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.00 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            over            -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.00 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            over            -9.38 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR9            -0.00 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.01 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            over            -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR6            over            -8.20 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================

The peak values go beyond the limit on most of the tracks, and yet the dynamic range value increased on tracks 9, 12, and 13.


What happened? The original files were in FLAC format and I converted them to Apple Lossless.
Edited by miceblue - 1/28/14 at 11:02pm
post #538 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I'm confused. I was using the dynamic range meter tool available here:
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

And it says it only works for 16/44 files with the offline tool. HD tracks seem to work so I tried out a new album I bought. The Objective DAC doesn't natively decode 24/88 files, but the DR tool did its thing and this was the output: DR Meter Test for 24/88 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.37 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR6            -0.10 dB        -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR5            -0.10 dB        -8.19 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================


Okay, that's cool and all. So I decided to go to the DR database and see the different DR ratings for the different versions of the song. The same album from the same website was uploaded already and the numbers differed from mine. I decided to down-sample my 24/88 files to 24/44 since the ODAC can natively decode that. After running the DR tool again, I get this output: DR Meter Test for 24/44 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            over            -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            over            -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            over            -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.00 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            over            -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.00 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            over            -9.38 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR9            -0.00 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.01 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            over            -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR6            over            -8.20 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================

The peak values go beyond the limit on most of the tracks, and yet the dynamic range value increased on tracks 9, 12, and 13.


What happened? The original files were in FLAC format and I converted them to Apple Lossless.

 

I just think the downsampling algorithm may be the reason. If a file is downsampled by half, for every two samples a single one will be chosen. If the peak is -0.01db (already very close) this particular sample may have hit the limit.

But that's just my guess.

 

The most puzzling thing is the difference between the vinyl and the cd versions. Pathetic. Just another way to make money off vinyl, and powering the myth that vinyl is better. :mad:


Edited by proton007 - 1/28/14 at 11:54pm
post #539 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


I just think the downsampling algorithm may be the reason. If a file is downsampled by half, for every two samples a single one will be chosen. If the peak is -0.01db (already very close) this particular sample may have hit the limit.
But that's just my guess.

The most puzzling thing is the difference between the vinyl and the cd versions. Pathetic. Just another way to make money off vinyl, and powering the myth that vinyl is better. mad.gif
Hm, that's interesting to note.

What's also puzzling to me is that the lossy iTunes masters are reported to have the same, or higher, dynamic range compared to these lossless HD Tracks version.
What gives? :/

Speaking of which though, the mastered for iTunes albums might be worth investing in since they are the studio masters down-sampled by Apple's services to iTunes. That's already more information than we know about any HD Tracks album.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/
Edited by miceblue - 1/29/14 at 12:32pm
post #540 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I'm confused. I was using the dynamic range meter tool available here:
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

And it says it only works for 16/44 files with the offline tool. HD tracks seem to work so I tried out a new album I bought. The Objective DAC doesn't natively decode 24/88 files, but the DR tool did its thing and this was the output: DR Meter Test for 24/88 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.10 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.37 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.10 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            -0.10 dB        -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR6            -0.10 dB        -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR5            -0.10 dB        -8.19 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================


Okay, that's cool and all. So I decided to go to the DR database and see the different DR ratings for the different versions of the song. The same album from the same website was uploaded already and the numbers differed from mine. I decided to down-sample my 24/88 files to 24/44 since the ODAC can natively decode that. After running the DR tool again, I get this output: DR Meter Test for 24/44 Files (Click to show)
Code:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed folder: /Users/Michael/Desktop/asdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR             Peak            RMS             Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 DR9            over            -10.29 dB       01 Give Life Back to Music.m4a
 DR9            over            -10.83 dB       02 The Game of Love.m4a
 DR7            over            -9.06 dB        03 Giorgio by Moroder.m4a
 DR8            -0.00 dB        -11.50 dB       04 Within.m4a
 DR7            over            -8.96 dB        05 Instant Crush (ft. Julian Casablancas).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.72 dB        06 Lose Yourself to Dance (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR7            -0.00 dB        -11.05 dB       07 Touch (ft. Paul Williams).m4a
 DR8            over            -9.38 dB        08 Get Lucky (ft. Pharrell Williams).m4a
 DR9            -0.00 dB        -10.25 dB       09 Beyond.m4a
 DR9            -0.01 dB        -11.73 dB       10 Motherboard.m4a
 DR8            over            -9.22 dB        11 Fragments of Time (ft. Todd Edwards).m4a
 DR7            over            -8.47 dB        12 Doin' It Right (ft. Panda Bear).m4a
 DR6            over            -8.20 dB        13 Contact.m4a
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of files:       13
 Official DR value:     DR8

==============================================================================================

The peak values go beyond the limit on most of the tracks, and yet the dynamic range value increased on tracks 9, 12, and 13.


What happened? The original files were in FLAC format and I converted them to Apple Lossless.
I don't understand. You state up front that only 16/44.1 tracks work and then proceed to analyze a 24/88.2 and a 24/44.1 track?
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