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Jitter Correlation to Audibility - Page 15

post #211 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post
 

Why Jitter Matters...

 

ime, what he says is very true about jitter. people who've never tried anything better than their laptop as a source, are not aware of jitter. 

 

 

Not really his talk is full of the same old audiophile cant and assumptions with ZERO empirical backup - he provides no evidence whatsoever for either the meaningful thresholds of jitter or the audible impact of jitter beyond the tired old audiophiles can hear it - if so why does he not simply provide some DBT evidence for this, he has the resources to do this, why does he very pointedly omit to mention that the propeller heads as he calls them also ask for proper evidence and not just stick with the assumption that such and such a level is too low to hear. If people say that a certain amount is too small to detect most do so from having found evidence to support this not just some wild assumption pulled out of thin air, and as Biggie says what is this nonsense about drummers.

 

If he really can hear 0.2ps jitter (which is several orders of magnitude lower than any measured threshold to date and 10x less than Steve Nugent's absurd claim)  I really really want to see some hard evidence for this - he can post it on YouTube !!

 

It is perhaps telling that his company does not publish ANY performance measurements, I did a bit of hunting around and finally found some measurements for one of their DACs http://www.musicdirect.com/documents/pdf/APSDL3_XPRESS.pdf the technical performance is okay but somewhat ordinary and in fact vastly inferior to the performance of a $350 Marantz CD player and on a par with my $130 Tianyun Zero !


Edited by nick_charles - 1/31/14 at 1:48pm
post #212 of 300

The workbench behind him is a nice touch though. It makes you think he actually knows about electronics and digital audio!

post #213 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post

jitter_noise.gif

--Ethan

 

This is a great chart... Particularly if you know how uncommon 10ns jitter is in stereo components, what noise at 80dB below the signal sounds like, and what frequencies above 10kHz sound like. Three strikes even at worse case scenario.

post #214 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

It is perhaps telling that his company does not publish ANY performance measurements, I did a bit of hunting around and finally found some measurements for one of their DACs 

 

Sorbothane Bumper Hemisphere Mounts!! WOW!! I need to get me some of those SORBOTHANE BUMPER HEMISPHERE MOUNTS!

post #215 of 300

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

Sorbothane Bumper Hemisphere Mounts!! WOW!! I need to get me some of those SORBOTHANE BUMPER HEMISPHERE MOUNTS!

I have them under every component that has a hard drive or a CD/DVD player or a big fan.

 

http://www.edmundoptics.com/optomechanics/optical-breadboard-components-laboratory-tables/laboratory-tables-breadboards/sorbothane-mounts/1618


Edited by Speedskater - 1/31/14 at 6:48pm
post #216 of 300

I keep mine in my underpants!

post #217 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post


How could you possibly know this? Do you have a box that lets you adjust the amount of jitter from zero through a large amount, then varied the amount to determine how much jitter is needed before it's audible? Unless you have done that, you are just guessing.
 

He is saying that different sources of "bitperfect" digital streams sound significantly different. Why do they sound different? If the reason is not jitter, what it could it possibly be? There is the time domain of the pulse signal, and then there is the bits themselves. That's it.

post #218 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
 As bigshot said, jitter manifests as noise, and in normal amounts it's way too soft for anyone to hear. This graph is from The Art of Digital Audio by John Watkinson.

 

Jitter manifests itself as small distortions in the analog sine wave. I believe you are in the wrong domain (digital v analog) to make any meaningful argument here. As far as your source I have no intention of reading anything on jitter dated all the way back to year 2000. Yikes!  I can assume you have either misinterpreted the author's claim, or the claim is outright wrong to begin with.


Edited by robertsong - 2/1/14 at 7:07am
post #219 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsong View Post
 

He is saying that different sources of "bitperfect" digital streams sound significantly different. Why do they sound different? If the reason is not jitter, what it could it possibly be?

 

Sloppy controls on the listening test? Different line levels? Defective electronics?

 

Sorry, but jitter as it exists in consumer audio is inaudible. Look at Ethan's chart again. Bigger jitter affects sound lower down the frequency spectrum and higher up in volume. Now find the jitter specs for something and figure out where it goes on the chart. I'll bet you a coke you'll be looking at numbers below the noise floor and frequencies only bats can hear.

 

Jitter is a hoodoo. Ethan knows his stuff.

 

Robertsong, didn't we explain all this to you before? Why don't you just go back to post 1 and and read it again?


Edited by bigshot - 2/1/14 at 10:04am
post #220 of 300
I love these discussions!
1) Someone links an article making absurd claims,
2) it gets debunked,
3) and then someone says " ...but... but... [insert repeat of absurd claim from aforementioned article]"
4) goto 2

Really, i truely enjoy seeing how many different ways some of these concepts can be explained. It is very educational. While there may be som-reaae stubborn, vocal folks that directly participate in these discussions, i suspect there are hundreds more who lurk here looking for answers---i used to silently haunt here---who benefit greatly from all of the well-reasoned explainations.

Okay, where were we?

goto 3

Cheers
post #221 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post

I love these discussions!
1) Someone links an article making absurd claims,
2) it gets debunked,
3) and then someone says " ...but... but... [insert repeat of absurd claim from aforementioned article]"
4) goto 2

 

It's even better when it's the same person making the same mistakes over and over. It gives me faith in the perseverance of humanity. History is the document of the same mistakes being made over and over.

post #222 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsong View Post

He is saying that different sources of "bitperfect" digital streams sound significantly different. Why do they sound different?

First he has to prove they really do sound different. That requires a proper level-matched blind test. The real question for me is why so many people blindly parrot such unproven claims, while arguing with people who actually understand this stuff and have tested it!

--Ethan
post #223 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post


First he has to prove they really do sound different. That requires a proper level-matched blind test. The real question for me is why so many people blindly parrot such unproven claims, while arguing with people who actually understand this stuff and have tested it!

--Ethan


I can answer that one.  Because those who understand and test stuff obviously don't know what they are talking about. 

 

And yes I am being facetious. 

 

The old idea of I reject your reality and replace it with my own.  You can't tell me what is real. 

post #224 of 300

I love the fact that this thread periodically comes out of slumber with same arguments and counter-arguments all over again.

 

If we cannot hear it/see it/feel it does it mean it doesn't exist?  Or does it not exist only in our mind?

post #225 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalchkn View Post
If we cannot hear it/see it/feel it does it mean it doesn't exist?  Or does it not exist only in our mind?

 

It's a discussion that always leaves me feeling...jittery.

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