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Perfect pitch may not be so 'perfect' - Page 7

post #91 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

The partials have the same frequency as the fundamental times a whole number, so that doesn't make sense.

I know it doesn't.  I didn't to me either.  You'll just have to study piano tuning and try it to understand it.  

post #92 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post

I know it doesn't.  I didn't to me either.  You'll just have to study piano tuning and try it to understand it.  

 

Oh I see now that is called inharmonicity, which is primarily a piano problem (and probably why there people who tune pianos for a living).

post #93 of 100

Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

I'll just go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt regarding whether or not you're not using a digital tuner (which would be extremely easy to do).

 

Never owned a digital tuner nor will I ever need one... Only a digital metronome. Also how can you use a digital tuner on an IEM?

 

Inharmonicity is persistent in most percussive instruments is it not? I normally hear fifths very clearly in pianos rather than octave overtones for some reason....

 

Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

Absolute pitch has nothing to do with harmonic content. Any good study you find about absolute pitch will be performed using sine waves or some other consistent synthesized wave form.

 

Absolute pitch has everything to do with harmonic content. People don't realise that they have absolute pitch by listening to sine waves. Studies will be conducted using sine waves but in practical scenarios this never happens. I personally think the harmonic content facilitates pitch detection rather than obfuscates it. 

post #94 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Never owned a digital tuner nor will I ever need one... Only a digital metronome. Also how can you use a digital tuner on an IEM?

 

Yeah sure

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Inharmonicity is persistent in most percussive instruments is it not? I normally hear fifths very clearly in pianos rather than octave overtones for some reason....

 

Percussive instruments aren't playing pitches in the same way as a piano or violin.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Absolute pitch has everything to do with harmonic content. People don't realise that they have absolute pitch by listening to sine waves. Studies will be conducted using sine waves but in practical scenarios this never happens. I personally think the harmonic content facilitates pitch detection rather than obfuscates it. 

 

Obviously most instruments involve harmonic content. That doesn't mean absolute pitch has anything to do with harmonic content. The definition of absolute pitch does not contain anything about harmonic content. Anyone with perfect pitch would know it by listening to sine waves alone, because those play pitches.

post #95 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

Yeah sure

 

 

Percussive instruments aren't playing pitches in the same way as a piano or violin.

 

 

Obviously most instruments involve harmonic content. That doesn't mean absolute pitch has anything to do with harmonic content. The definition of absolute pitch does not contain anything about harmonic content. Anyone with perfect pitch would know it by listening to sine waves alone, because those play pitches.

If you are that doubtful, contact me if you are ever around in London... The level of your distrust and lack of courtesy is simply astounding. 

 

Percussive instruments are playing pitches. Timpani in orchestras are tuned to specific notes. The Piano is sort of percussive, it's been called a 'keyed zither'. Violin is not inharmonic at all.

 

Absolute pitch among musicians indicate people that can identify or recall certain notes without reference. A lot of 'perfect pitch' people often have certain instruments that they have more difficulty over than others in identifying pitch. I think harmonic content helps pitch identification in one way or another. In your strictest definition of pitch only sine waves would matter but then, how many individuals test their pitch ability with sine waves. They always find out they have way due to some affiliation with specific instruments. 


Edited by uchihaitachi - 6/25/13 at 9:40pm
post #96 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

If you are that doubtful, contact me if you are ever around in London... The level of your distrust and lack of courtesy is simply astounding.

 

I am skeptical, since you originally only claimed that you knew musicians who could hear between 440 and 441, and then later claimed to have perfect pitch, and then to be able to hear a 2c difference.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post
 

Percussive instruments are playing pitches. Timpani in orchestras are tuned to specific notes. The Piano is sort of percussive, it's been called a 'keyed zither'. Violin is not inharmonic at all.

 

I said they don't play pitches IN THE SAME WAY. The timpani is the one percussive instrument that is tuned to play specific notes, but it isn't tuned anything like a piano is.

This is all irrelevant to the discussion in any case.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post
 

Absolute pitch among musicians indicate people that can identify or recall certain notes without reference. A lot of 'perfect pitch' people often have certain instruments that they have more difficulty over than others in identifying pitch. I think harmonic content helps pitch identification in one way or another. In your strictest definition of pitch only sine waves would matter but then, how many individuals test their pitch ability with sine waves. They always find out they have way due to some affiliation with specific instruments. 

 

It doesn't matter if they help people identify what notes are being played. I've been arguing to that point this entire time - that increasing the pitch changes timbre which musicians can hear easier. That doesn't mean harmonic content is part of absolute pitch. The definition precludes it entirely.

 

Has anyone ever told you how insufferable you are?

post #97 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

 

I am skeptical, since you originally only claimed that you knew musicians who could hear between 440 and 441, and then later claimed to have perfect pitch, and then to be able to hear a 2c difference.

 

 

I said they don't play pitches IN THE SAME WAY. The timpani is the one percussive instrument that is tuned to play specific notes, but it isn't tuned anything like a piano is.

This is all irrelevant to the discussion in any case.

 

 

It doesn't matter if they help people identify what notes are being played. I've been arguing to that point this entire time - that increasing the pitch changes timbre which musicians can hear easier. That doesn't mean harmonic content is part of absolute pitch. The definition precludes it entirely.

 

Has anyone ever told you how insufferable you are?

You seem to be skeptical because you seem to know little about professional musicians and their prowess and can barely tell 5c apart. I have perfect pitch but it is not anything remotely noteworthy as I am of Asian descent, speak a tonal language and have been brought up in a music filled household. If you read correctly, I mentioned that I had perfect pitch before any of this discussion began; in fact, you have the order of discourse completely in reverse.

 

I understand your point about sine waves. I thought we were talking about individuals with absolute pitch or perfect pitch who are able to tell 1c 2c differences apart. Telling 1c and 2c differences apart does not have to mean that you have to be listening to sine waves. It also gets rather confusing when you refer to absolute pitch which initially I took to mean an individual with perfect pitch.

 

You are the first person who has told me that I am insufferable in the short 22 years that I have lived (excluding certain individuals in the Tera player thread). I have tried to remain civil and suggested that we simply agree to disagree much earlier on. Despite this, you continued on being quite aggressive and disagreeable yourself. It isn't nice to continuously misquote and accuse me of mentioning certain topics that I did not even bring up. With regards to you finding me insufferable, I would like to sincerely apologise for any of my actions which may have annoyed you. It really was not my intention to do so. With that, I take my leave. 


Edited by uchihaitachi - 6/26/13 at 3:31am
post #98 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

You seem to be skeptical because you seem to know little about professional musicians and their prowess and can barely tell 5c apart.

 

Oh please, I already knew you were condescending, so this comment isn't really necessary. Anyone who reads this thread would not come to the conclusion that you know more about music or musicians than me... you had a hard time understanding simple concepts like timbre..

 

If you actually read my original post, you'll see I said musicians I know with perfect say they can tell if some thing is a few cents out of tune, so you are clearly oblivious to my position (which I've known for some time now). They don't say "Oh this is 2 cents sharp" because they DO NOT have that ability, and you haven't provided any proof that that is possible. It is all name dropping and posting dubious/irrelevant online listening tests.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post
I have perfect pitch but it is not anything remotely noteworthy as I am of Asian descent, speak a tonal language and have been brought up in a music filled household. If you read correctly, I mentioned that I had perfect pitch before any of this discussion began; in fact, you have the order of discourse completely in reverse.

 

Yeah sure. None of this is relevant to the discussion, FYI. But that hasn't stopped you, so whatever.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I understand your point about sine waves. I thought we were talking about individuals with absolute pitch or perfect pitch who are able to tell 1c 2c differences apart. Telling 1c and 2c differences apart does not have to mean that you have to be listening to sine waves. It also gets rather confusing when you refer to absolute pitch which initially I took to mean an individual with perfect pitch.

 

Uh yes it does, unless you are talking about waveforms whose harmonic content does not change when playing different pitches. If that wasn't true, then people could just be listening for timbre changes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

You are the first person who has told me that I am insufferable in the short 22 years that I have lived (excluding certain individuals in the Tera player thread). I have tried to remain civil and suggested that we simply agree to disagree much earlier on. Despite this, you continued on being quite aggressive and disagreeable yourself. It isn't nice to continuously misquote and accuse me of mentioning certain topics that I did not even bring up. With regards to you finding me insufferable, I would like to sincerely apologise for any of my actions which may have annoyed you. It really was not my intention to do so. With that, I take my leave. 

 

You argue in circles, completely misread what I'm saying, flat out deny things you've said in the past, condescend to me, name drop, change subjects, ughhhh.

But really I have only myself to blame for wasting time talking to you.


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/26/13 at 8:04am
post #99 of 100

Eisenhower and Uchihaitachi, 

 

Please take your argument to PM, and end it there.  You aren't contributing to the thread, and this is exactly what gets useful threads locked.

post #100 of 100

I haven't been following this thread, but from my reading, the threshold of audibility for relative pitch at best is about 4 to 5 cents. That would require a direct A/B comparison because auditory memory would start messing things up after a couple of seconds. Those with "perfect pitch" would have a better chance of determining differences without direct comparison. Clearly audible to everyone would be about 15 cents.

 

Perfect pitch is generally better at non-relative pitching, not more accurate at determining relative pitch.


Edited by bigshot - 6/26/13 at 12:02pm
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