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Perfect pitch may not be so 'perfect' - Page 3

post #31 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Not at all, modern day piano tuners still tune every piano by ear. It's an incredibly difficult qualification to get. 

+1

 

Yep, still done by ear.  There may be a digital reference for A440, but tuning for temperament involves listening for beats between intervals.  No two instruments are the same, and there's no good way to do it with a tuning device, you have to listen for beats, and literally count them. Then, tuning for stretch, which corrects for cumulative inaccuracies caused by temperament tuning, you have to listen to tune for partials.  Pretty tricky stuff, and yes, the only way is by ear.

post #32 of 100

And scary as well! 20 tons of tension in those piano strings! 

post #33 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I am very confused as to what you are implying. Performers and conductors put up the pitch as it often results in a 'brighter' impression. On the other hand, some choose to perform at baroque pitch to maintain authenticity especially for period music. 

 

Often pitch is increased incrementally and very slightly to give off the 'brighter impression'. If pitch is increased drastically, it confuses the listener rather than achieving the 'brighter' effect. 

 

There can be no "brighter" impression based on pitch if you are increasing pitch below the precision of hearing. When composers say they tune up to make the sound brighter, they are referring to the timbre, not the pitch. It will increase the string tension of violins, cellos, upright basses, which changes the harmonic overtones in a way to make the tone and timbre sound brighter.

post #34 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

There can be no "brighter" impression based on pitch if you are increasing pitch below the precision of hearing. When composers say they tune up to make the sound brighter, they are referring to the timbre, not the pitch. It will increase the string tension of violins, cellos, upright basses, which changes the harmonic overtones in a way to make the tone and timbre sound brighter.

You are still confusing the definition of timbre with something else.

Brighter may have been the wrong word to use, sorry for the confusion. But listen to the same Baroque piece performed at period authentic conditions and one performed with A set to 440. If you cannot hear the quality that I tried to describe as brightness, I am afraid you might be tone deaf.
Edited by uchihaitachi - 6/21/13 at 10:44am
post #35 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post

+1

Yep, still done by ear.  There may be a digital reference for A440, but tuning for temperament involves listening for beats between intervals.  No two instruments are the same, and there's no good way to do it with a tuning device, you have to listen for beats, and literally count them. Then, tuning for stretch, which corrects for cumulative inaccuracies caused by temperament tuning, you have to listen to tune for partials.  Pretty tricky stuff, and yes, the only way is by ear.

Mr Addie you truly are omniscient regarding everything related to sound!
post #36 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post


You are still confusing the definition of timbre with something else.

Brighter may have been the wrong word to use, sorry for the confusion. But listen to the same Baroque piece performed at period authentic conditions and one performed with A set to 440. If you cannot hear the quality that I tried to describe as brightness, I am afraid you might be tone deaf.

 

If you have a definition of timbre that contradicts what I've said, please do share. The wikipedia entry mentions harmonic content and everything else I've said also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre#Harmonics

 

"Pitch" means the fundamental frequency, and "timbre" means the spectrum of harmonics. How am I confusing anything?

 

You yourself said you cannot hear the difference between A440 and A442 when playing a sine wave. The reason you might be able to tell if an actual orchestra is tuned this much higher is because the timbre changes - the higher string tension results in more higher order harmonics which subjectively sounds "brighter". It isn't some subconscious auditory feature making the extra 2 or 3 cents (below the precision of reliable hearing) sound brighter. If it was 10 cents, then the pitch itself might begin mattering along with the timbre.


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/21/13 at 11:11am
post #37 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post


Mr Addie you truly are omniscient regarding everything related to sound!

 

lol, because he (seemingly) agrees with you?

please...


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/21/13 at 11:19am
post #38 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post

+1

 

Yep, still done by ear.  There may be a digital reference for A440, but tuning for temperament involves listening for beats between intervals.  No two instruments are the same, and there's no good way to do it with a tuning device, you have to listen for beats, and literally count them. Then, tuning for stretch, which corrects for cumulative inaccuracies caused by temperament tuning, you have to listen to tune for partials.  Pretty tricky stuff, and yes, the only way is by ear.

 

The reference part is pretty important because we were, after all, talking about absolute pitch, which is entirely different than tuning with beats.

But even then, there is nothing tuning by ear can accomplish that a good tuning device can. Most piano tuners use professional software such as: http://www.veritune.com/

post #39 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

lol, because he (seemingly) agrees with you?

No need to be offensive. I have asked Mr Addie many questions regards to the science of sound in various threads and via various PMs. Same for Mr Winer and I respect them both highly for the depth of their expertise. It is not common knowledge to know so thoroughly about what a piano tuner does.
Edited by uchihaitachi - 6/21/13 at 11:23am
post #40 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post


No need to be offensive.

 

I actually found your self congratulating post and baseless assertion that I was "confusing" the definition of timbre offensive. Try to stay on topic and make substantive arguments. If you wanted to give him karma, there is a little thumbs-up icon in the bottom right corner of each reply for that.


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/21/13 at 11:29am
post #41 of 100
In simple terms, timbre is what makes a particular musical sound different from another, even when they have the same PITCH and loudness.
post #42 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

In simple terms, timbre is what makes a particular musical sound different from another, even when they have the same PITCH and loudness.

 

And in scientific terms, the difference in sound arises from harmonic content, which is what I said and what any other resource will also tell you.

 

You've capitalized pitch as if it means something in this case. We are talking about indistinguishable changes in pitch, so the pitch is effectively unchanged. I've been repeating myself now for a few replies....


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/21/13 at 11:35am
post #43 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

I actually found your self congratulating post and baseless assertion that I was "confusing" the definition of timbre offensive. Try to stay on topic and make substantive arguments. If you wanted to give him karma, there is a little thumbs-up icon in the bottom right corner of each reply for that.

Look that was not what I intended at all.
You are confusing timbre. That reply was copyand pasted from the wiki link you provided. Jascha Heifetz is another musician whose absolute pitch was deemed hertz perfect. In several of his paganini etude recordings there was a scientific analysis performed on his ability to hit the perfectly in tune notes which he did.
post #44 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower View Post

And in scientific terms, the difference in sound arises from harmonic content, which is what I said and what any other resource will also tell you.

You've capitalized pitch as if it means something in this case. We are talking about indistinguishable changes in pitch, so the pitch is effectively unchanged. I've been repeating myself now for a few replies....

You say it is indistinguishable. I say it isn't. I too have repeated myself several times. In my opinion I believe you vastly underestimate the auditory capacity of many professional musicians. Piano tuners deal with 1c changes daily.
post #45 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Look that was not what I intended at all.
You are confusing timbre. That reply was copyand pasted from the wiki link you provided. Jascha Heifetz is another musician whose absolute pitch was deemed hertz perfect. In several of his paganini etude recordings there was a scientific analysis performed on his ability to hit the perfectly in tune notes which he did.

 

I've explained now in very precise terms why my definition of timbre is correct and I've cited the wikipedia page which says exactly the same thing. You are just repeating yourself over and over again. You said previously that hearing a 2c is reserved for only exceptional people. In that case, a 2c difference is not an audible change in pitch for almost all listeners (I would argue all listeners). Sure it technically is a change in pitch, but timbre isn't a technical term, it is a subjective one, and subjectively people cannot hear 2c differences in pitch (yourself included). I don't know who Jascha Heifetz is, or why you insist on name dropping people as if it validates what you are saying. Feel free to cite sources though, it isn't too late to start.


Edited by Eisenhower - 6/21/13 at 11:43am
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