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New Schiit! Ragnarok and Yggdrasil - Page 342

post #5116 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog View Post

Hmmm. I should get a new computer, but what should I get. Should I go for an Apple or should I punish myself and get a pc. I want a system that will easily work with the Yggdrasil.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/585-sotm-sms-100-mini-server-review/

 

Circumvent USB/PC/Mac related 'issues' entirely. Much cheaper. Unless you feel the need for an 'audiophile' ethernet cable, course. Then you may as well by two top-spec Mac Pros.

post #5117 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog View Post

Hmmm. I should get a new computer, but what should I get. Should I go for an Apple or should I punish myself and get a pc. I want a system that will easily work with the Yggdrasil.

 

It's not 1995 any longer.  There is no technical reason why Schiit can't develop a stable Windows driver like hundreds of thousands of other companies have in 2015.

 

If they are having problems with Windows connectivity with the production model, there goes over 80% of their potential sales.  I have a hard time imagining they would let that happen, even given Mike's dislike of the OS.  The guys at Schiit may be "crazy technical guys". but they aren't crazy when it comes to actual business....

post #5118 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
 

 

It's not 1995 any longer.  There is no technical reason why Schiit can't develop a stable Windows driver like hundreds of thousands of other companies have in 2015.

 

If they are having problems with Windows connectivity with the production model, there goes over 80% of their potential sales.  I have a hard time imagining they would let that happen, even given Mike's dislike of the OS.  The guys at Schiit may be "crazy technical guys". but they aren't crazy when it comes to actual business....


Sure they can, but should they have to? That companies like Schiit need to devote resources to insure a product designed to USB spec. works with Windows... Pathetic. It'd be one thing if the same happened on the OS X side - it doesn't. Plug and play. Heck, even Linux is much better in this area. They'll sort it out because they must. Pity though.

post #5119 of 9301

So why not just use optical? Then you don't need to worry about USB issues... Just sayin'

You could make sure that whatever source you use has something other than USB and then never have to worry about it.

Especially if you are planning on getting something new anyway.

 

It is fairly easy to add optical, too.

post #5120 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misterrogers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
 

 

It's not 1995 any longer.  There is no technical reason why Schiit can't develop a stable Windows driver like hundreds of thousands of other companies have in 2015.

 

If they are having problems with Windows connectivity with the production model, there goes over 80% of their potential sales.  I have a hard time imagining they would let that happen, even given Mike's dislike of the OS.  The guys at Schiit may be "crazy technical guys". but they aren't crazy when it comes to actual business....


Sure they can, but should they have to? That companies like Schiit need to devote resources to insure a product designed to USB spec. works with Windows... Pathetic. It'd be one thing if the same happened on the OS X side - it doesn't. Plug and play. Heck, even Linux is much better in this area. They'll sort it out because they must. Pity though.


It doesn't happen on the Windows side either these days. As I said earlier, it isn't 1995 anymore and the stories of "issues" with Windows USB drivers seems to come mostly from those who don't like the OS.

It's not like we read about Windows USB driver issues every day at Head-FI though they happen rarely. OS-X isn't immune either. At least a few vendors have had USB issues when Apple has released new OS versions. Pretty sure W4S had an issue recently with their drivers and OS-X so it does happen.
post #5121 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misterrogers View Post
 


Sure they can, but should they have to? That companies like Schiit need to devote resources to insure a product designed to USB spec. works with Windows... Pathetic. It'd be one thing if the same happened on the OS X side - it doesn't. Plug and play. Heck, even Linux is much better in this area. They'll sort it out because they must. Pity though.

 

It's not pathetic at all, because if you're going to sell a (pricey) product with USB interface, you have to ensure that it will work with at least 95% of the existing configurations. Even if it would take three months more than originally planned. Otherwise you should say bye-bye to the $$$ of the many customers using that OS, and obviously not willing to change their PC only for a DAC. Simple as that.


Edited by Pidgeon - 3/21/15 at 8:02am
post #5122 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog View Post

Hmmm. I should get a new computer, but what should I get. Should I go for an Apple or should I punish myself and get a pc. I want a system that will easily work with the Yggdrasil.

Sounds like a way to punish myself :D

post #5123 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
 

 

It's not 1995 any longer.  There is no technical reason why Schiit can't develop a stable Windows driver like hundreds of thousands of other companies have in 2015.

 

 

And we do have stable Windows drivers for the tens of thousands of USB-equipped DACs that we have sold.

 

However, with Yggdrasil's new USB input, it's important to test for interaction between the older and newer drivers (do the old ones need to be removed? Are there conflicts if you're running both versions?) and for overall stability. Wash, rinse, repeat for the innumerable versions of Windows, including the "invisible" 32/64 bit variants, on the innumerable types of systems, etc, etc, etc...this is not trivial.

 

And--the thing that is completely inexcusable--this is simply because Windows does not support USB Class 2 Audio Standard, even in Windows 10. It is the only major OS not to do so.

 

Mac is plug and play. Linux is plug and play. Hell, Android 5.0 is plug and play. No drivers, just plug and go.

 

And yes, even with stable drivers, a large part of our tech support is for Windows drivers issues--permissions problems, trying to install it on unsupported OSes (Windows Server, for example), conflicts with other drivers, etc, etc. Frequently accompanied by a haughty attitude and arrogance (How dare you do not make my factory-gimped OS work as seamlessly as other platforms? I have built 26 sooper-dooper computers with Arglebargle motherboards and USB 3.2 and I was on the team that designed the Pentium!!!!)

 

So sit back, relax, and know that we'll have stable Windows drivers, for the foreseeable future in which Windows remains the only platform that does not support this almost decade-old USB Audio Class 2 standard.

post #5124 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoga View Post
 


I might be reading into yout language incorrectly (it's a forum, after all), but you 'sound' impatient.

 

It was merely a pointer to some feedback/comments regarding the Rag + speakers. It was more to do with the impressions, rather than the figures. Often times in public forums it's useful to share something that is helpful beyond the immediate response. Others may not have seen it.

 

Regardless, you've answered your own question.

 

It goes beyond 'impatient' - I have absolutely no problem with the info or the link - I do have an issue with the fact that you posted it in response to a very specific request for information, particularly when another Head-Fier posted information pointing to possible issues when using the Ragnarok as a preamp. If you think I'm nitpicking for it's own sake, ask yourself how you'd feel if you spent that much money on a component that you believed worked well as a preamp only to find that it didnt meet your expectations. Ideally, Jason would have given us his insight into this, but I'd imagine that he has his hands full right now preparing for CANJAM and running a business. 

 

I'm not here to get into a to-and-fro about something I personally have very little interest in - Yggy is the focus of my attention - but people spend many multiples of the Rag's price looking for the 'perfect' preamp when some may have been better off simply buying a good pro monitor controller and leaving it at that. The guy with the Maestro's had a very different set of priorities - simply to see if the Rag would drive them - and it's a fantastic result in that context. 

 

Originally Posted by buson160man View Post
 

 Has anyone used ragnarok as a preamp ? I would like some opinions about its performance as a balanced preamp. I have a pair of emotiva stealth 8 active monitors . How well does the ragnarok work as a preamp ? My other consideration is  the grace  design m 905 analog monitor controller .  Any opinions as to how they compare ?


There's a post in the Rag thread of it powering $40K (5 foot tall) speakers.

post #5125 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

Quote:Originally Posted by bfreedma It's not 1995 any longer. There is no technical reason why Schiit can't develop a stable Windows driver like hundreds of thousands of other companies have in 2015. And we do have stable Windows drivers for the tens of thousands of USB-equipped DACs that we have sold. However, with Yggdrasil's new USB input, it's important to test for interaction between the older and newer drivers (do the old ones need to be removed? Are there conflicts if you're running both versions?) and for overall stability. Wash, rinse, repeat for the innumerable versions of Windows, including the "invisible" 32/64 bit variants, on the innumerable types of systems, etc, etc, etc...this is not trivial. And--the thing that is completely inexcusable--this is simply because Windows does not support USB Class 2 Audio Standard, even in Windows 10. It is the only major OS not to do so. Mac is plug and play. Linux is plug and play. Hell, Android 5.0 is plug and play. No drivers, just plug and go. And yes, even with stable drivers, a large part of our tech support is for Windows drivers issues--permissions problems, trying to install it on unsupported OSes (Windows Server, for example), conflicts with other drivers, etc, etc. Frequently accompanied by a haughty attitude and arrogance (How dare you do not make my factory-gimped OS work as seamlessly as other platforms? I have built 26 sooper-dooper computers with Arglebargle motherboards and USB 3.2 and I was on the team that designed the Pentium!!!!) So sit back, relax, and know that we'll have stable Windows drivers, for the foreseeable future in which Windows remains the only platform that does not support this almost decade-old USB Audio Class 2 standard.

Wasn't suggesting that you didn't have existing stable Windows drivers for in production gear, so apologize if that was the interpretation.

And I don't doubt that most of your support calls come from Windows users based on OS market share. Nor do I doubt the existence of frustrated "experts" who call in for support then proceed to ignore good advice because they have some bizarre configuration to enhance the speed of a computer used exclusively for Internet browsing and streaming. Or install Server because of some imaginary improvements achieved by turning off services on a computer averaging less than 3% CPU utilization. The joys of IT support can be endless:)

Apple is at a huge advantage by having near total control over access to their hardware and OS. Were it "open" in the way the Wintel platform was, users would most likely see more issues.

My original point was simply that the challenge of developing Windows USB drivers was being overplayed.

Regardless, I'm sure by delivery day, the Windows drivers will in good working order.

BTW, I would like to connect one to a home built computer running a virtualized DOS 2.0 instance on a 6 year old version of VMware where I've manually set processor affinity for every service. Should be no problem, right smily_headphones1.gif.
Edited by bfreedma - 3/21/15 at 12:05pm
post #5126 of 9301

Nit picking? Not at all. The sheer gravitas of the situation must not be underestimated; mentioning a previous post in a forum is a serious offence. Best call the White House later on to update the necessary official channels. I'm sure they won't by happy. Some may have even surpassed impatience. 

 

Have a good day, dear friendly fellow :¬)

post #5127 of 9301
Windows can be a very stable and well running operating system. The potential problem here is in the environment where you install your software/drivers. Too many OEMs overload standard Windows installs with bloat and naggy software, well before users install their suite of software. Even if Windows had support for USB Audio Class 2, you could still have problems with audio hiccups/skipping/noise/etc. There is a reason why tools like DPC Latency Checker exist. Realtime audio playback/recording requires certain attention and care to the OS.
post #5128 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

BTW, I would like to connect one to a home built computer running a virtualized DOS 2.0 instance on a 6 year old version of VMware where I've manually set processor affinity for every service. Should be no problem, right smily_headphones1.gif.

 

LOL, gotcha, NOOO problem. Especially if it only has USB 1.0 ports.

 

(By the way, to the wider world: KIDDING!)

 

To clarify my position on Windows/Mac/Linux, the only real issue I have with Windows is its lack of support for a decade-old USB audio standard.

 

I use both Macs and PCs every day (Mac for the marketing stuff, Windows for PCB layout/3D CAD/etc.) Mike adds Linux to the mix, but we all use all major OSes. There are relevant reasons to use Windows (engineering software being a very good one) and relevant reasons to use Mac (simply easier to deal with other people in marketing/design/video/audio etc, since that platform is embedded deep in those markets.)

 

I actually ran Centric, my marketing agency, on Windows from 1994 to 2001, bucking the Mac monoculture at the time, so I have some deep experience with implementing Windows in unlikely places. It worked very well, but in the end, we switched to Mac for ease of hiring and interfacing with our production partners. Would I go back to Windows for marketing? Not likely. Similarly, would I try to move all our engineering to Macs? Nope--try to find sheetmetal CAD software for it. Note that "sheetmetal CAD" is not "general 3D CAD."

 

In the end, it's about the right system for the job. Mac, Linux, and Windows can all be good audio platforms...but only one doesn't support USB Audio Class 2. Which is why we run the vast majority of the audio systems on Mac or Linux. Though for Can-Jam, we will be using Windows tablets...they take up less space, and allow us to use the same audio library across the board. 

post #5129 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

Quote:Originally Posted by bfreedma BTW, I would like to connect one to a home built computer running a virtualized DOS 2.0 instance on a 6 year old version of VMware where I've manually set processor affinity for every service. Should be no problem, right . LOL, gotcha, NOOO problem. Especially if it only has USB 1.0 ports. (By the way, to the wider world: KIDDING!) To clarify my position on Windows/Mac/Linux, the only real issue I have with Windows is its lack of support for a decade-old USB audio standard. I use both Macs and PCs every day (Mac for the marketing stuff, Windows for PCB layout/3D CAD/etc.) Mike adds Linux to the mix, but we all use all major OSes. There are relevant reasons to use Windows (engineering software being a very good one) and relevant reasons to use Mac (simply easier to deal with other people in marketing/design/video/audio etc, since that platform is embedded deep in those markets.) I actually ran Centric, my marketing agency, on Windows from 1994 to 2001, bucking the Mac monoculture at the time, so I have some deep experience with implementing Windows in unlikely places. It worked very well, but in the end, we switched to Mac for ease of hiring and interfacing with our production partners. Would I go back to Windows for marketing? Not likely. Similarly, would I try to move all our engineering to Macs? Nope--try to find sheetmetal CAD software for it. Note that "sheetmetal CAD" is not "general 3D CAD." In the end, it's about the right system for the job. Mac, Linux, and Windows can all be good audio platforms...but only one doesn't support USB Audio Class 2. Which is why we run the vast majority of the audio systems on Mac or Linux. Though for Can-Jam, we will be using Windows tablets...they take up less space, and allow us to use the same audio library across the board.

Glad you knew I was joking about the config. Can never tell over the Internet how things can get interpreted. And completely agree with you on using the right tool for the job. Wonder why MS hasn't implemented Audio Class 2? Perhaps part of the Zune marketing plan?

BTW, my USB 1 is an external converter to a 25 pin serial port on my VM server's motherboard. Can you send me the pinouts I need to get it working with the Yggy? smily_headphones1.gif

Ok, I'm done with my old guy computer humor now. Good luck with the final stages in getting what must have been a massive project completed and into production!
Edited by bfreedma - 3/21/15 at 1:17pm
post #5130 of 9301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post
 

 

LOL, gotcha, NOOO problem. Especially if it only has USB 1.0 ports.

 

(By the way, to the wider world: KIDDING!)

 

To clarify my position on Windows/Mac/Linux, the only real issue I have with Windows is its lack of support for a decade-old USB audio standard.

 

I use both Macs and PCs every day (Mac for the marketing stuff, Windows for PCB layout/3D CAD/etc.) Mike adds Linux to the mix, but we all use all major OSes. There are relevant reasons to use Windows (engineering software being a very good one) and relevant reasons to use Mac (simply easier to deal with other people in marketing/design/video/audio etc, since that platform is embedded deep in those markets.)

 

I actually ran Centric, my marketing agency, on Windows from 1994 to 2001, bucking the Mac monoculture at the time, so I have some deep experience with implementing Windows in unlikely places. It worked very well, but in the end, we switched to Mac for ease of hiring and interfacing with our production partners. Would I go back to Windows for marketing? Not likely. Similarly, would I try to move all our engineering to Macs? Nope--try to find sheetmetal CAD software for it. Note that "sheetmetal CAD" is not "general 3D CAD."

 

In the end, it's about the right system for the job. Mac, Linux, and Windows can all be good audio platforms...but only one doesn't support USB Audio Class 2. Which is why we run the vast majority of the audio systems on Mac or Linux. Though for Can-Jam, we will be using Windows tablets...they take up less space, and allow us to use the same audio library across the board. 

Just wondering if you have ever used a dedicated Audio PC, and if so have you heard major differences between a standard windows laptop and the audio PC while using the Yggy? 

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