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post #346 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

More power isn't bad as with a properly designed circuit the amp is simply idling at normal listening levels.  Far more linear that way compared to some voltage or current limited circuit that starts misbehaving with next to no load.  A Dynahi is 20W+ but you never need anything close to that level of power, even with the supposedly power hungry HE6 (it isn't all that hungry though).  Headroom is a good thing to have which is why we design amps for electrostatics which will easily destroy the delicate diaphragms given the chance. 

 

In relative terms..  Compared to what?  HD800, T1, LCD-3?  I would say they are.  Compared to other headphones "only"

post #347 of 2663
I remember fondly the Sumo amps and, back before Theta Digital, a Mike Moffat-designed preamp that sounded damn good. Now all you guys need for some real old-timey amp "street cred" is to bring John Iverson back from the dead to help out. ;)
post #348 of 2663
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greed View Post

 

Yea, I'm using relatively inefficient speakers, the MMGs.

 

No "flea power" single-ended triode amps for those. biggrin.gif

 

 

Quote:
Personally I've used a few 100w power amps that sound better (IMO) to some 300W offerings.

 

Yeah. There's no rule that more power is equal to better sound. Unless of course a given amp is underpowered for a given situation.

 

Quote:
Personally, I feel good headphone amps are tough to produce. With the tremendously low noise numbers headphones require, I would think that would result in a differences with regards to topology. I believe a lot of finesse should be implemented in a headphone amp design. Technicalities might not be much different, but priorities should be different, IMO.

 

Well, all I can say is that of the headphone amps that I'm familiar with down to the topology level, I haven't seen anything different than what I've seen used for speaker amplifiers, save for scaling down the power.

 

se

post #349 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones Bob View Post


No Schiit, Sherlock.......:-)

I was replying to Kevin Gilmore's post where he states the Satri uses no feedback voltage gain and a voltage output stage. Maybe Kevin can provide a link to help clarify for us.

 

Everyone's a comedian..............
post #350 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

More power isn't bad as with a properly designed circuit the amp is simply idling at normal listening levels.  Far more linear that way compared to some voltage or current limited circuit that starts misbehaving with next to no load.  A Dynahi is 20W+ but you never need anything close to that level of power, even with the supposedly power hungry HE6 (it isn't all that hungry though).  Headroom is a good thing to have which is why we design amps for electrostatics which will easily destroy the delicate diaphragms given the chance. 

Great explanation. I like it and I buy it. This should be reposted on the speaker amps for headphones thread, but then it'll just cause more bitter arguing/chaos.

post #351 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones Bob View Post


No Schiit, Sherlock.......:-)

I was replying to Kevin Gilmore's post where he states the Satri uses no feedback voltage gain and a voltage output stage. Maybe Kevin can provide a link to help clarify for us.

I have the schematics which I am certainly not going to publish here.

But are available If you know where to look.

 

The input stage is a high impedance voltage to current converter.

the next stages are usually referred to as current conveyors and are open loop

back to back balanced current mirrors (basically Wilson current mirrors with tweaks)

feeding an adjustable resistor for gain. Then an open loop no voltage gain class A

buffer.

 

A number of different companies are using this kind of circuitry these days with

great results. Bakoon,krell, audio-gd, ayre...  Its takes a lot of parts. Distortion typically in the

.002% range. No TIM. Very fast.

post #352 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin gilmore View Post

I have the schematics which I am certainly not going to publish here.
But are available If you know where to look.

The input stage is a high impedance voltage to current converter.
the next stages are usually referred to as current conveyors and are open loop
back to back balanced current mirrors (basically Wilson current mirrors with tweaks)
feeding an adjustable resistor for gain. Then an open loop no voltage gain class A
buffer.

A number of different companies are using this kind of circuitry these days with
great results. Bakoon,krell, audio-gd, ayre...  Its takes a lot of parts. Distortion typically in the
.002% range. No TIM. Very fast.

Yeah, looked and found the Satri and Audio-gd schematics too. Also some DIY design and builds. Seems the AD844 opamp is a similar circuit using J-FETs instead of BJTs too.

Anyway no need for me to belabor the point more, as this is a thread about the new Schiit Statement Amps and DACs. Sorry for the diversion.

Now everyone back to the original topic at hand...... :-)
Edited by Jones Bob - 7/12/13 at 3:44pm
post #353 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

In relative terms..  Compared to what?  HD800, T1, LCD-3?  I would say they are.  Compared to other headphones "only"

 

They are insensitive so by HF terms they are power hungry.  To the rest of the world this just means amps with more voltage swing and turn up the volume/gain.  They aren't that current hungry so suggesting at 100W speaker amp makes no sense. 

post #354 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

They are insensitive so by HF terms they are power hungry.  To the rest of the world this just means amps with more voltage swing and turn up the volume/gain.  They aren't that current hungry so suggesting at 100W speaker amp makes no sense. 
Spritz, it's the power supply in the 100w amp that offers the speed of delivery, current reserves, V swing at lower volumes that benefit the 6s vs the typical headphone amp. There is a debate on every topic but the overwhelming majority of 6 users have preferred the speaker amp to most all headphone amps for our needs. The other part of that decision is the vast number of speaker amps that many of us already own vs having to buy another headphone amp for them. I know this is a marketing site to sell gear but there are still a lot of us that are here to share listening experiences and not assist in selling gear for someone. Mentioning speaker amps are giving the reader another option that they may not have considered. The amount of power isn't the issue. I used a 400 watt MacIntosh last week with the 6s and they sound great. Only used about 1-2 watts on average, 4-5 watts for loud listening. It's not the amount of power capable but the quality of power supply to offer the 6s what they need. The headphone amps that can offer all the 6s can use can be counted on your fingers. IMO
post #355 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post


Spritz, it's the power supply in the 100w amp that offers the speed of delivery, current reserves, V swing at lower volumes that benefit the 6s vs the typical headphone amp. There is a debate on every topic but the overwhelming majority of 6 users have preferred the speaker amp to most all headphone amps for our needs. The other part of that decision is the vast number of speaker amps that many of us already own vs having to buy another headphone amp for them. I know this is a marketing site to sell gear but there are still a lot of us that are here to share listening experiences and not assist in selling gear for someone. Mentioning speaker amps are giving the reader another option that they may not have considered. The amount of power isn't the issue. I used a 400 watt MacIntosh last week with the 6s and they sound great. Only used about 1-2 watts on average, 4-5 watts for loud listening. It's not the amount of power capable but the quality of power supply to offer the 6s what they need. The headphone amps that can offer all the 6s can use can be counted on your fingers. IMO

 

+2, an amp is only as good as its power supply.

post #356 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post


Spritz, it's the power supply in the 100w amp that offers the speed of delivery, current reserves, V swing at lower volumes that benefit the 6s vs the typical headphone amp. There is a debate on every topic but the overwhelming majority of 6 users have preferred the speaker amp to most all headphone amps for our needs. The other part of that decision is the vast number of speaker amps that many of us already own vs having to buy another headphone amp for them. I know this is a marketing site to sell gear but there are still a lot of us that are here to share listening experiences and not assist in selling gear for someone. Mentioning speaker amps are giving the reader another option that they may not have considered. The amount of power isn't the issue. I used a 400 watt MacIntosh last week with the 6s and they sound great. Only used about 1-2 watts on average, 4-5 watts for loud listening. It's not the amount of power capable but the quality of power supply to offer the 6s what they need. The headphone amps that can offer all the 6s can use can be counted on your fingers. IMO

 

Sure but most power amps have very simple PSU's that rely on large value caps to do the filtering.  I'd take regulated and tracking supplies over that every day. 

 

It's also not about what the HE-6's can handle, it's what they need. 

post #357 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

Sure but most power amps have very simple PSU's that rely on large value caps to do the filtering.  I'd take regulated and tracking supplies over that every day. 

It's also not about what the HE-6's can handle, it's what they need. 
Not all amps will sound as good so the continued investigation. The headphone amp makers will know what's needed and we'll see a better offering but up to now, receivers, integrated and power amps have done better. These new offerings will be awaited with anticipation. But there are plenty of other options.
post #358 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

 

Sure but most power amps have very simple PSU's that rely on large value caps to do the filtering.  I'd take regulated and tracking supplies over that every day. 

 

It's also not about what the HE-6's can handle, it's what they need. 

 

I agree.

 

The average power amp for loudspeakers uses an unregulated power supply.

The average headphone amplifier uses a regulated power supply.  Just like a pre-amp line stage.

post #359 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

 

They are insensitive so by HF terms they are power hungry.  To the rest of the world this just means amps with more voltage swing and turn up the volume/gain.  They aren't that current hungry so suggesting at 100W speaker amp makes no sense. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

I agree.

 

The average power amp for loudspeakers uses an unregulated power supply.

The average headphone amplifier uses a regulated power supply.  Just like a pre-amp line stage.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

 

Sure but most power amps have very simple PSU's that rely on large value caps to do the filtering.  I'd take regulated and tracking supplies over that every day. 

 

It's also not about what the HE-6's can handle, it's what they need. 

 

 

I'm nowhere near EE status.  So I'm just going on what I've heard.  Take my First Watt amp, It's only 10 w into 8 - nowhere near 100 watts.  So I'm not sure where 100 watts was suggested.  

 

What I've noticed is very large TXs in just about all amps that make the 6s sound good.  So what roll does the TX play in all this in relation to it's size and quality of course?  Getting them to get loud is not a issue with any amp.  It's how they sound at those high volume levels that leaves my wondering.

post #360 of 2663
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

 

Sure but most power amps have very simple PSU's that rely on large value caps to do the filtering.  I'd take regulated and tracking supplies over that every day. 

 

It's also not about what the HE-6's can handle, it's what they need. 

So quick question, how would you say the GS-X MKII would drive the HE-6s (fully balanced)?

Thanks!

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