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Zero Audio - ZH-DX200 Carbo Tenore | ZH-DX210 Carbo Basso (Carbon & Aluminium IEM) thread - Page 194

Poll Results: Which one would you order??

 
  • 74% (281)
    Carbo Tenore
  • 25% (98)
    Carbo Basso
379 Total Votes  
post #2896 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunshane View Post

A good pair of ears just posted some detailed comparison impressions between the UERM, ER-4 P&S and Tenore on another site. I don't think I'm allowed to post the link, so don't ask... Aarrr Matey.

Gonna go out on a limb and say that's Muzak lol gonna go read up
post #2897 of 5986
Changster.com 😅... I read the review 😃... Seems great , almost on the uerm level but was it burned in for. 300hrs😃
post #2898 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idsynchrono_24 View Post

Gonna go out on a limb and say that's Muzak lol gonna go read up

Haha try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mochill View Post

Changster.com 😅... I read the review 😃... Seems great , almost on the uerm level but was it burned in for. 300hrs😃

I finally figured it out. It's the macro dynamics. The Tenore is brick walled. It undermines just about everything it does amazingly, which is mostly everything. =(
post #2899 of 5986
 
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post

 

I also doubt that these IEMs are missing dynamic range - that would mean they exhibit some unprecedented, complex nonlinear distortion.

In regards to dynamics, it's incorrect how some are mentioning dynamic range loosely. Unless the IEM has high distortion like a FAD (and even then), dynamics should be recording dependant, what may perceived as more dynamic is merely placebo from a more slanted frequency response, like v-shaped responses. 

post #2900 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post
 
 
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post

 

I also doubt that these IEMs are missing dynamic range - that would mean they exhibit some unprecedented, complex nonlinear distortion.

In regards to dynamics, it's incorrect how some are mentioning dynamic range loosely. Unless the IEM has high distortion like a FAD (and even then), dynamics should be recording dependant, what may perceived as more dynamic is merely placebo from a more slanted frequency response, like v-shaped responses. 

 

Agree completely. There are so many factors. Modern music is overly compressed. V-shaped earphones add a sense of clarity and dynamics that people might like because it "brings life" to the lifeless recordings. I hear no "noticeable" dynamic range compression or loss on the tenores. I could also see someone having a bassy pair finding the bass masking like lack of dynamics, but that would be a matter of response as well. I listen to some very well recorded songs, and the dynamics, depth and realism on a "reference" set of tenores is pretty impressive.

post #2901 of 5986

Just got these and am comparing them with my TDK IE800s. So far I think they sound a lot like how I remember the RE400s. Smooth and musical, but lack a little separation, soundstage, punch and dynamics. I prefer the TDKs so far, which I suppose is no surprise given their original 150 dollar price.

 

Great for 50 dollars and probably worth double but I can't imagine they best $300 IEMs.

 

Fit is great.


Edited by Stuff Jones - 6/19/14 at 4:36pm
post #2902 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

Agree completely. There are so many factors. Modern music is overly compressed. V-shaped earphones add a sense of clarity and dynamics that people might like because it "brings life" to the lifeless recordings. I hear no "noticeable" dynamic range compression or loss on the tenores. I could also see someone having a bassy pair finding the bass masking like lack of dynamics, but that would be a matter of response as well. I listen to some very well recorded songs, and the dynamics, depth and realism on a "reference" set of tenores is pretty impressive.

They actually don't.  More neutral response do.  V shaped means mids are hidden, and forward bass and treble.  The bass will cover the mids, and with less mids, clarity will be lost.  Dynamic range is most dependent on recording.  

post #2903 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuff Jones View Post
 

Just got these and am comparing them with my TDK IE800s. So far I think they sound a lot like how I remember the RE400s. Smooth and musical, but lack a little separation, soundstage impact and dynamics. I prefer the TDKs so far, which I suppose is no surprise given their original 150 dollar price.

 

Great for 50 dollars and probably worth double but I can't imagine they best $300 IEMs.

 

Fit is great.

 

Separation impact and soundstage are tip dependent. Give them a try with long necked double flanges.

post #2904 of 5986

For example, it doesn't pull apart the layers on this piece at all. It just sounds like all the noise is generated by a single synthesizer.

 

post #2905 of 5986

I know what you mean by separation.  It's obvious with BA drivers that are atleast 3-way.  

post #2906 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiesOfAzel View Post
 

 

Separation impact and soundstage are tip dependent. Give them a try with long necked double flanges.

 

I don't have any but I'll try some comply ones.

 

Edit: Actually I found some and it does make a really big difference. Thanks!


Edited by Stuff Jones - 6/19/14 at 7:13pm
post #2907 of 5986
Wide bore tips are the way to go 😃
post #2908 of 5986

Think I may have gotten the bassier version. Any way to confirm?

 

For example, the bass in this song dominates a little too much IMO.

 

post #2909 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuff Jones View Post
 

Think I may have gotten the bassier version. Any way to confirm?

 

For example, the bass in this song dominates a little too much IMO.

 

 

You could test with tones, but if your ear finds it bassy it's bassy for you and that's what matters. You can try the front vent mod, or different tips that don't seal as well. Longer tips will also tighten the bass, that's why i recommended you double flanges.

 

[EDIT]

There is also the possibility that you need to do some mental burn in, the IE800 rolls off early on the lows, even if your pair is not that bassy it will sound this way by comparison to the TDKs.


Edited by SkiesOfAzel - 6/19/14 at 8:13pm
post #2910 of 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuff Jones View Post
 

Think I may have gotten the bassier version. Any way to confirm?

 

For example, the bass in this song dominates a little too much IMO.

 

 

Other than being an "old" sounding recording, the instruments are pretty balanced with eachother on my tenores. The bass sounds more dry and in your face, but not bassy, the piano sounds more in the distance, the drums sort of somewhere in between but all a similar volume.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

Agree completely. There are so many factors. Modern music is overly compressed. V-shaped earphones add a sense of clarity and dynamics that people might like because it "brings life" to the lifeless recordings. I hear no "noticeable" dynamic range compression or loss on the tenores. I could also see someone having a bassy pair finding the bass masking like lack of dynamics, but that would be a matter of response as well. I listen to some very well recorded songs, and the dynamics, depth and realism on a "reference" set of tenores is pretty impressive.

They actually don't.  More neutral response do.  V shaped means mids are hidden, and forward bass and treble.  The bass will cover the mids, and with less mids, clarity will be lost.  Dynamic range is most dependent on recording.  

 

Can't..... hold.... tongue..... bah!  This is definitely not true. With good recordings, absolutely you are correct. But with overly compressed recordings, as I was referring to, this is not the case. As an audio engineer and fervent warrior against the loudness war I must disagree. When "most" modern CDs go through their mastering phase there are a few common things done to the sound. The main change is to dynamically compress or "brick wall" the audio signal so that the mastering engineer can pump out as much volume as possible. Large amounts of dynamic compression make a song sound dull and lifeless. As there is no sense of attack, the apparent details suffer and even bass impact is ruined. The result is a muddy mix of all the complex sounds with no good level of distinction.

 

The irony is that so many people seek out amazing gear to listen to this stuff. Don't get me wrong, there is some excellent music that unfortunately suffers from bad mastering. Nonetheless, you have two possible end results. First, you have an audio engineer that realizes this dull outcome of the sound. They are under pressure to get the most volume, so they compensate the dullness by using various plugins and tricks to give the frequencies a shift into a more V shaped signature. Anything from greater pre-compression EQ compensation to exciter-type plugins and even adding distortion in certain bands and all sorts of other various "trade secrets" are used to try and give the impression of more detail or "life" to the sound.

 

On the other hand, a lot of engineers simply don't do this and compress the final audio signal with no aural compensation. The result would be the same exact final mastered sound, but now it has added compression that results in the dull lifelessness with greater volume. When this type of music is listened to on a reference earphone or headphone, I'd argue it still sounds the best and most accurate, however, most people would find it dull and lifeless (as much as the compression affected it that is). The easiest way to compensate for this is with a V-shaped phone. The added treble peak gives extra energy to the treble and the same for the bass peak. Most people that become familiar with a flat signature will realize that these peaks might temporarily give the illusion of added detail, but ultimately they usually just add fatigue, possible sibilance, etc. While the added bass simply masks the other frequencies more and can end up sounding bloated and "slow" as some people describe it.

 

I haven't even taken into account noise reduction which further reduces details, clarity and airiness. Let alone poor stereo width in a mix and other mix pitfalls. Needless to say, everyone has their own opinion on sound and there's no "right" way to listen to music if the goal is enjoyment. It's your choice. However, from an accuracy standpoint this is all going in the wrong direction. Instead of fixing the problem at the source, users are forced to try and fix it at the other end. Ironically, well recorded music suffers with these non-neutral phones, because they might contain more treble energy to begin with, so the boosted treble causes more noticeably peakiness, harshness, sibilance, etc. And with these V-shaped earphones, people usually do consider them to sound more dynamic because of the things i just described. When a drum snare is hit hard, a compressed track on a neutral earphone will represent that snare hit as blending in with the other instruments in terms of volume and dynamics. So it won't sound very snappy. On a treble boosted earphone, that snare drum will snap in a frequency that is boosted. This gives the impression that the snare drum is hitting louder than the other instruments in the lower regions, thus the impression of more dynamics. Unfortunately, this isn't actually recording dynamics being accurately portrayed, it's somewhat of an illusion.

 

I'll say again, I'm not saying anything bad about V-shaped signatures. In fact, some can sound very nice. But a lot of the sound and results are dependent on the recordings and what a user expects the end sound to be. For most people, that expectation is based on current mastering trends (because they're not aware of anything else) and thus dictates the listener's impressions to some degree. If you watch a bluray on a super reference HD TV it looks amazing. If you take an old 1960's color film that has not been restored in any way and has faded over time, most people would want to increase the contrast of their TV to give the image more  seemingly dynamic "pop" and vividness. Same idea with audio. If they went back to the source and cleaned up the old film so it displayed the vibrant colors as it was originally recorded, you wouldn't need any boost. If engineers went back and mastered the audio to CD so it sounded the way it did before being compressed, you wouldn't need to compensate for these flaws. Obviously, there are still personal tastes that will always dictate what a person will like, but I think a lot of times people don't realize "why" they don't like something. And if you only listen to modern, highly compressed music, by all means, enjoy a V-shaped signature. There's nothing wrong with that. That's most likely why they are so popular and companies continue to pump out model after model of similar signature phones in this regard. People like the way it makes their music sound. However, if you were to hear the same modern recording uncompressed, the difference in depth, soundstage, details etc. would be very noticeable. No earphone signature can restore these qualities from a compressed song. Compression can't be undone. They can only give the false impression of something "like" these properties. But to a experienced ear these don't easily fool.

 

Personally, I don't listen to recordings that I find are poorly engineered. Or at least very rarely. I will go out of my way to find a well mastered version of a CD, and I won't buy a new CD if I find it to be very compressed dynamically out of principle against the loudness war or noise reduced. Sorry for the long post. You can blame silverears. ;) moohoohahaha


Edited by luisdent - 6/19/14 at 8:31pm
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