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Zero Audio - ZH-DX200 Carbo Tenore | ZH-DX210 Carbo Basso (Carbon & Aluminium IEM) thread - Page 180

Poll Results: Which one would you order??

 
  • 73% (274)
    Carbo Tenore
  • 26% (97)
    Carbo Basso
371 Total Votes  
post #2686 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francisk View Post

Thanks for the filter removal info Gnarlsagan. Looks like I have a lot of work to do with all the tips from James444, Grayson73 and you. Btw Gnarlsagan, do I remove the foam filter or adjust it? What does the foam filter on the proper Tenore look like compared to the bassy Tenore? I'm not giving up on my Tenore yet, thanks to all your support. I'm truly looking forward to hear the wonderful sound that you guys are hearing on your proper Tenore.

So far any foam dampening behind the filter is just a theory. Mochill is the only one who knows so maybe he could chime in. I think it makes sense though, as many iems use some kind of damper to affect FR.

Personally, what I would do (and almost did before deciding to return my bassy pair) is take off the filter and then listen. If it were still too bassy, I'd check for a damper and reduce its size. If it was foam I'd cut some of it off, and if it was just a filter I'd poke a hole in it and put it back. Of course I'd only do this if I couldn't return them.
post #2687 of 5960

Dampers primarily reduce the response at resonant frequencies. It may increase the mid highs/treble but at the expense of significant sound quality.

The bass is probably a product of venting. Though we'd have to have someone brave enough to open up one of their units to know what's going on.


Edited by higbvuyb - 6/13/14 at 8:48pm
post #2688 of 5960

A bit of data here. Gnarlsagan sent me his current two tenores for comparison. Here are my findings.

 

One of his sets sounds the same as my four sets. That's five similar sets that are reference in sound.

 

However, his other set really surprised me by how obvious the difference was. I'm not talking about "oh it's a little less bass", I put them in expecting to either hear a slight difference or no difference. But I was shocked. The only comparison I can make would be to a telephone type sound. Not that bad of course, but everything under 400hz was noticeably lower resulting in an almost bassless sound.

 

I do find that inserting them very deeply with the right tips brings back most of the reference sound of the other sets. Which brings up some interesting questions as to what is causing these acoustic differences. Needless to say, I put them on my a/b switch and started some side by side comparisons and used EQ to compensate the bass light pair so they sound like the reference pair. This is a very very close approximation (as much as a/b switching allows) of the difference in bass:

 

 

That's at least 7db of bass difference!!! That's huge!. As gnarlsagan describes, he had a few "warm" or "bassy" pairs. At least one of which he said was approximately the same difference in the opposite direction. With this being true, it is very clear why some people are finding them not as detailed, not as dynamic sounding, not neutral, etc. If you are getting +7 db with everything below 400hz that is a huge difference. I mean, deeeeeum.

 

So the best advice I can give, is that you compare your tenores to something like the er4s or hd600 and use the "overall" tone and sound as a reference. If your tenore sounds noticeably bassier or warmer than you probably have a "bassy" pair. If you hear something extremely similar in neutrality to the hd600 or er4s, but with very linear bass, at least close to neutral, then you probably have a reference set. I pity the fool that gets the bass light set. ;) The one nice thing about them is that it offers a more reference sound when inserted deeply. So if you prefer deep fits they might be great. Otherwise, the treble sounds essentially unchanged between sets. I can't hear any noticeable difference above 400hz on any of them when the bass is EQ'd to the same levels. In fact I was listening to his bass light pair for a while and forgot it was said pair, because i had the EQ applied.

 

Regarding the "reference" sets I have. All five sets sound identical in every way. Identical bass as far as I can tell, at least within .5db from low to high. This makes me believe this is probably the target of the tenores. Whereas other sets seem to not be consistently identical. For instance, gnarlsagan's warm sets weren't the same level of bass between them. I'm guessing there are components that are inconsistent with the bass reproduction level.

 

Again, this is still a very small pool of data. We're talking 7 or 8  so sets between us two and then maybe 20 or so on the thread here that might vary, out of possible thousands? That's probably less than 0.5% of sets. However, it is obvious that there are differences out there either way. So, as before, I just recommend you compare them to sets as mentioned to get an idea how far off your bass level is, if at all. It's definitely worth trying to get a reference pair. You could buy 6 tenores for the price of one er4s. And if you get one good set you did good in my opinion. Obviously not everyone will agree, but hopefully it wouldn't take that many and you could return the others. But value wise, they are excellent no matter what. Just some thoughts.

 

I'll post some impressions of various tips he sent me as well. Still going through them...

 

p.s. You might want to try a -7db low shelf filter if you find your set bassy. If that makes them sound uber reference you know you probably want to try for another set (unless you enjoy the bass that is) :)


Edited by luisdent - 6/13/14 at 9:34pm
post #2689 of 5960
You get less bass bloat with the filter removable method smily_headphones1.gif
post #2690 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post
 

Dampers primarily reduce the response at resonant frequencies. It may increase the mid highs/treble but at the expense of significant sound quality.

The bass is probably a product of venting. Though we'd have to have someone brave enough to open up one of their units to know what's going on.

 

X2, I'd rather suspect variations on the back vent's airflow.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

A bit of data here. Gnarlsagan sent me his current two tenores for comparison. Here are my findings.

 

One of his sets sounds the same as my four sets. That's five similar sets that are reference in sound.

 

However, his other set really surprised me by how obvious the difference was. I'm not talking about "oh it's a little less bass", I put them in expecting to either hear a slight difference or no difference. But I was shocked. The only comparison I can make would be to a telephone type sound. Not that bad of course, but everything under 400hz was noticeably lower resulting in an almost bassless sound.

 

...

 

p.s. You might want to try a -7db low shelf filter if you find your set bassy. If that makes them sound uber reference you know you probably want to try for another set (unless you enjoy the bass that is) :)

 

Thanks for your work, but as I understand it you have five sets that you call reference and one "bassless" set. So, where do the bassy sets come in?

post #2691 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by mochill View Post

You get less bass bloat with the filter removable method smily_headphones1.gif

 

Yup, but most likely because it boosts the upper mids and treble and tips the overall balance towards brightness.

post #2692 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by higbvuyb View Post
 

Dampers primarily reduce the response at resonant frequencies. It may increase the mid highs/treble but at the expense of significant sound quality.

The bass is probably a product of venting. Though we'd have to have someone brave enough to open up one of their units to know what's going on.

 

X2, I'd rather suspect variations on the back vent's airflow.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

A bit of data here. Gnarlsagan sent me his current two tenores for comparison. Here are my findings.

 

One of his sets sounds the same as my four sets. That's five similar sets that are reference in sound.

 

However, his other set really surprised me by how obvious the difference was. I'm not talking about "oh it's a little less bass", I put them in expecting to either hear a slight difference or no difference. But I was shocked. The only comparison I can make would be to a telephone type sound. Not that bad of course, but everything under 400hz was noticeably lower resulting in an almost bassless sound.

 

...

 

p.s. You might want to try a -7db low shelf filter if you find your set bassy. If that makes them sound uber reference you know you probably want to try for another set (unless you enjoy the bass that is) :)

 

Thanks for your work, but as I understand it you have five sets that you call reference and one "bassless" set. So, where do the bassy sets come in?

 

They're just further variance. Gnarlsagan sent me the two new sets to compare. So his current "varied" set as I call it is -7db of bass. However, he recently returned some and had received "warmer" pairs that he described as being similar difference in the opposite direction (more bass rather than less bass, but in a similar proportion). Correct me if I'm wrong gnarlsagan...

 

It just shows that it isn't strictly a "more bass" version is out there. There is a more bass, medium bass and less bass floating around. And if the difference is as much as I suspect, we're talking 14db variance. That's pretty unacceptable in terms of quality control in my opinion. That's just enormous. However, it's hard to tell with the data, as I said before. But it does tell us that these differences "can" exist. And when a pair is very reference/neutral it is strikingly awesome sounding. So it is worth trying to compare your set and see if it seems like it might be bassy or not and try to get a reference pair.

 

Whether you want to go down that journey of trying multiple sets is a personal decision, and the variance is pretty disappointing, even if it is an isolated situation. However, the reference pairs I have sound so good it was worth it to me. As long as they are reasonable long lasting I'm a happy man. As I said earlier, my set is very very very er4s like in nature with the sub bass being more level based on some targets. The bassy pairs would definitely not sound as reference, although still very smooth and high quality. The reference pairs are just dandy. :-P

post #2693 of 5960

I am thinking about ordering these IEM's.

 

Tried the KC06 and did not like it. What can I expect different in these? I'd rather not return two in a row if I can help it :)

 

Edit: Specifically looking at the DX210 Basso. I am not really a Bass person, but since these will not be used for "listening sessions" but purely for HD Radio (300 Kbps) and during a gym workout with a MP3/Flac player, I'd rather have a "fun" sound signature.


Edited by Bboy500 - 6/13/14 at 10:01pm
post #2694 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

They're just further variance. Gnarlsagan sent me the two new sets to compare. So his current "varied" set as I call it is -7db of bass. However, he recently returned some and had received "warmer" pairs that he described as being similar difference in the opposite direction (more bass rather than less bass, but in a similar proportion). Correct me if I'm wrong gnarlsagan...

 

It just shows that it isn't strictly a "more bass" version is out there. There is a more bass, medium bass and less bass floating around. And if the difference is as much as I suspect, we're talking 14db variance. That's pretty unacceptable in terms of quality control in my opinion. That's just enormous. However, it's hard to tell with the data, as I said before. But it does tell us that these differences "can" exist. And when a pair is very reference/neutral it is strikingly awesome sounding. So it is worth trying to compare your set and see if it seems like it might be bassy or not and try to get a reference pair.

 

Whether you want to go down that journey of trying multiple sets is a personal decision, and the variance is pretty disappointing, even if it is an isolated situation. However, the reference pairs I have sound so good it was worth it to me. As long as they are reasonable long lasting I'm a happy man. As I said earlier, my set is very very very er4s like in nature with the sub bass being more level based on some targets. The bassy pairs would definitely not sound as reference, although still very smooth and high quality. The reference pairs are just dandy. :-P

 

Interesting, from your EQ setting it seems the variance on the "bassless" set starts as high up as 400Hz and evens out below 200Hz. This would, by implication, make a "bassy" set sound warm.

 

However, on my (and probably vwinter's) set, mid/upper bass sounds lacking and only deep bass boosted. This doesn't sound warm at all and would result in quite a different EQ curve.

post #2695 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bboy500 View Post
 

I am thinking about ordering these IEM's.

 

Tried the KC06 and did not like it. What can I expect different in these? I'd rather not return two in a row if I can help it :)

 

Edit: Specifically looking at the DX210 Basso. I am not really a Bass person, but since these will not be used for "listening sessions" but purely for HD Radio (300 Kbps) and during a gym workout with a MP3/Flac player, I'd rather have a "fun" sound signature.

 

Even the +7db bass variance is still not really basshead levels. Some people even argue between needing +6db of bass in general to be neutral. That's another story all together, but essentially you'll get a very smooth linear response with no big flaws. The bassier sets will be warm and softer sounding while the more neutral sets will sound more open and balanced. If you get a bass light set, well, other than deep insertion, which might be fine depending on the user, that variation in my opinion is just overly bright and not very balanced sounding, although still fairly smooth in response, without major peaks/dips, that is, in isolated areas, just overall less bass. But it seems like the variances can either be eliminated or at least reduced based upon insertion depth.

 

Inserting the bass light pair very deep gives essentially the same sound as the reference pairs fitted shallow. If you wear the reference pair mid ear, the bass heavy version can be made a little closer to that by wearing them very shallow. But this is highly dependent on the user's ears, and I wouldn't assume you can fully correct either variance without first hearing each set. But it's something to try at a minimum.

post #2696 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

Even the +7db bass variance is still not really basshead levels. Some people even argue between needing +6db of bass in general to be neutral. That's another story all together, but essentially you'll get a very smooth linear response with no big flaws. The bassier sets will be warm and softer sounding while the more neutral sets will sound more open and balanced. If you get a bass light set, well, other than deep insertion, which might be fine depending on the user, that variation in my opinion is just overly bright and not very balanced sounding, although still fairly smooth in response, without major peaks/dips, that is, in isolated areas, just overall less bass. But it seems like the variances can either be eliminated or at least reduced based upon insertion depth.

 

Inserting the bass light pair very deep gives essentially the same sound as the reference pairs fitted shallow. If you wear the reference pair mid ear, the bass heavy version can be made a little closer to that by wearing them very shallow. But this is highly dependent on the user's ears, and I wouldn't assume you can fully correct either variance without first hearing each set. But it's something to try at a minimum.

 

I think you missed his edit. ;) 

post #2697 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

They're just further variance. Gnarlsagan sent me the two new sets to compare. So his current "varied" set as I call it is -7db of bass. However, he recently returned some and had received "warmer" pairs that he described as being similar difference in the opposite direction (more bass rather than less bass, but in a similar proportion). Correct me if I'm wrong gnarlsagan...

 

It just shows that it isn't strictly a "more bass" version is out there. There is a more bass, medium bass and less bass floating around. And if the difference is as much as I suspect, we're talking 14db variance. That's pretty unacceptable in terms of quality control in my opinion. That's just enormous. However, it's hard to tell with the data, as I said before. But it does tell us that these differences "can" exist. And when a pair is very reference/neutral it is strikingly awesome sounding. So it is worth trying to compare your set and see if it seems like it might be bassy or not and try to get a reference pair.

 

Whether you want to go down that journey of trying multiple sets is a personal decision, and the variance is pretty disappointing, even if it is an isolated situation. However, the reference pairs I have sound so good it was worth it to me. As long as they are reasonable long lasting I'm a happy man. As I said earlier, my set is very very very er4s like in nature with the sub bass being more level based on some targets. The bassy pairs would definitely not sound as reference, although still very smooth and high quality. The reference pairs are just dandy. :-P

 

Interesting, from your EQ setting it seems the variance on the "bassless" set starts as high up as 400Hz and evens out below 200Hz. This would, by implication, make a "bassy" set sound warm.

 

However, on my (and probably vwinter's) set, mid/upper bass sounds lacking and only deep bass boosted. This doesn't sound warm at all and would result in quite a different EQ curve.

 

I'm guessing that the non references sets could have any number of varying bass response curves. Gnarlsagan said that his two warm sets varied slightly, not sure about response points though. If there are slight variances in amplitude, there are probably variances in frequency area as well. Just a theory, but who knows what is causing the variance? So it's hard to say what it affects. For all we know, with a certain shift in bass you could see more distortion levels even. Not to start any rumors, but just saying that it's hard to know what to expect. The fact that the five reference pairs I have are, as far as I can tell, 100% identical, i'm led to believe that is probably the target reference. Not only because there is no variance at all, but they simply sound tuned to a neutral response on purpose. They sound "right" and high quality. 

 

The bass light set for instance just sounds wrong. It sounds like it simply isn't tuned right. I'm guessing the varying sets to some degree will sound similarly "off". As though the upper half is very smooth and neutral with the lower half not really "matching" that response in level. The reference sets I have don't contain any one area that stands out from another. Every frequency region sounds equally tuned and neutral. This is all just theory, but it seems like the most logical conclusion based on the info I have...


Edited by luisdent - 6/13/14 at 10:25pm
post #2698 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

Even the +7db bass variance is still not really basshead levels. Some people even argue between needing +6db of bass in general to be neutral. That's another story all together, but essentially you'll get a very smooth linear response with no big flaws. The bassier sets will be warm and softer sounding while the more neutral sets will sound more open and balanced. If you get a bass light set, well, other than deep insertion, which might be fine depending on the user, that variation in my opinion is just overly bright and not very balanced sounding, although still fairly smooth in response, without major peaks/dips, that is, in isolated areas, just overall less bass. But it seems like the variances can either be eliminated or at least reduced based upon insertion depth.

 

Inserting the bass light pair very deep gives essentially the same sound as the reference pairs fitted shallow. If you wear the reference pair mid ear, the bass heavy version can be made a little closer to that by wearing them very shallow. But this is highly dependent on the user's ears, and I wouldn't assume you can fully correct either variance without first hearing each set. But it's something to try at a minimum.

 

I think you missed his edit. ;) 

?

post #2699 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

Even the +7db bass variance is still not really basshead levels. Some people even argue between needing +6db of bass in general to be neutral. That's another story all together, but essentially you'll get a very smooth linear response with no big flaws. The bassier sets will be warm and softer sounding while the more neutral sets will sound more open and balanced. If you get a bass light set, well, other than deep insertion, which might be fine depending on the user, that variation in my opinion is just overly bright and not very balanced sounding, although still fairly smooth in response, without major peaks/dips, that is, in isolated areas, just overall less bass. But it seems like the variances can either be eliminated or at least reduced based upon insertion depth.

 

Inserting the bass light pair very deep gives essentially the same sound as the reference pairs fitted shallow. If you wear the reference pair mid ear, the bass heavy version can be made a little closer to that by wearing them very shallow. But this is highly dependent on the user's ears, and I wouldn't assume you can fully correct either variance without first hearing each set. But it's something to try at a minimum.

 

As I said, I am not a basshead. I don't need huge levels of bass. IEM's I am looking for either need to sound equal/neutral and be solid at lows, mids and highs (They don't have to be great at any, just be good enough at all 3.).. Or have a nice amount of bass in so that I "forget" about the lower qualities of an IEM.

 

My issue with the KC06 is that while the mids are pretty damn great, the bass isn't all that good from my previous $15 IEM and the highs sound pretty awful to me. The bass doesn't do anywhere near close of a job of covering up the bad highs and it just ruins most songs I listen to. They end up not very enjoyable to listen to.

 

Hope that helps describe what I am looking for (At around the $60 range, though I will go higher if needed)

 

Edit: From your description though, the bassier versions are definitely the ones I would try if I was to pick one of these up.


Edited by Bboy500 - 6/13/14 at 10:41pm
post #2700 of 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

?

 

He said he's specifically looking at the DX210 Carbo Basso and it seems you explained the Carbo Tenore's variances. (Or is it me who's barking up the wrong tree? :confused:)

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