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Zero Audio - ZH-DX200 Carbo Tenore | ZH-DX210 Carbo Basso (Carbon & Aluminium IEM) thread - Page 150

Poll Results: Which one would you order??

 
  • 73% (274)
    Carbo Tenore
  • 26% (97)
    Carbo Basso
371 Total Votes  
post #2236 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Tenore is not neutral, like I said, look at the scale in that graph, and the low end.  My impressions reflect the graph, Tenore is warm and since it's warm, it creates a more noticible sound stage than my CK-10 which has more details and brighter, but more neutral with less warmth.

 

Sorry guys, I don't have the ER4 to do comparison.  I will be getting number of DAPs for comparison to hear which I like best.  

 

You may not agree, but I have heard a lot of "reference" "neutral" earphones and have two very neutral phones in my hands right now, the hd580 and the er4s, doing extensive a/b comparisons. My set of tenores is as flat, if not flatter than the hd580 series sennheisers and the er4s. If you don't think any of those are flat then fine, but I believe they are extremely flat compared to everything out there, and my tenores match or beat them overall. If you didn't get a good set maybe you need to try another pair. I have absolutely no bass boost. My bass is like the er4s if it graphed perfectly flat in the sub bass.

 

Just to give you an idea of how critical i'm being, I used to EQ the hell out of the er4s. I EXTREMELY familiar with its frequency response. I was literally making 0.5db EQ adjustments to get it sounding perfect to me based on graphs. But whether someone prefers that or not is besides the point. The point is that I was extremely familiar with every nuance of the frequency response of that pair. My tenores sound identical to the er4s from 100hz up to 10khz. If you put a high and low pass filter on both pairs I would have a hard time knowing which was which (other than the physical comfort). The tenores however, extend up at least another 2-3khz easy for me and the bass doesn't have any 5-7db drop from 50 to 20hz. Instead very apparently neutral (I don't have a graph to verify, but judging by my familiarity with these other neutral phones). As I'm very critical of frequency response and familiar with these neutral sets, I would know if I heard even a few db high bass boost.

 

Maybe I lucked out, but if you hear otherwise, you're either not getting the same fit or you have a pair that sounds different like gnarlsagan did. So everything i'm describing is real, but maybe you need to try a different pair. That's all I can say. You can't say "the tenore isn't neutral". You can say "your" tenore isn't neutral. Same for me. "My" tenore is neutral. If it isn't than nothing is. It is the closest to perfection I've ever heard so far. If we do have varying pairs that would explain the difference, but even then it would have to vary a lot for someone to say it isn't even neutral in nature. Anyway, you could simply say some sets aren't neutral some might be or some are. I know for a fact mine is :-P And I recommend people try them with the hopes they get a reference pair. If they don't, they should try another pair or two. If they aren't into that, then that's understandable, but I think it's worth it if you can get a reference set.

 

The 580 and tenores side by side being a/b'd:

HD580: very flat overall, almost perfect mids, a little low on the lowest sub bass, which isn't bad and a tad uneven in the high treble.

ER4S: Not the best sub bass, good mids, a but of a bump and dip in the upper half, but overall pretty level on average.


Edited by luisdent - 5/31/14 at 4:29pm
post #2237 of 5963

Yeah, the lack of sub-bass is reason why ER4 sounds so cold.  Lots of people have been saying, it's neutral. Yada, yada, but to my ears it lacked some warmth for it to sound fun or even neutral looking at that graph.  There are lots of graphs out there, the one you posted is perceived FR, not sure how that was measure as most graph shows that ER4 is pretty neutral, but insertion dependent.  I'm not a fan of ER4 as I got rid of it.

post #2238 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 
Mine is not like that.  It sounds bad, but I'm just being pretty anal.  I'm just saying that treble opened up, and now vocals sound more forward.  There is sibilance that wasn't there before, and for some tracks that have cymbal like sound, it's not very controlled. That's what I mean by treble distortion. Tinny treble meaning the treble is forward a bit thick and lacking in the fine treble.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by luisdent View Post

 

I have no sibilance ever, unless a track has it in the recording. But I either have more break in, or just a better pair. I have absolutely none of what you describe. Unless you find the same thing to be true with the er4s. :-P Can you compare your set to the er4s?

 

No sibilance at all here either. The highs sound great. SilverEars, it seems to me that you have a problem pair (or really bad synergy with your source).

 

And on a positive note, my pair were burning in all night, and then in my ears all day (making vile yard work quite a bit more enjoyable), and I have had no further problems with my left driver! :)

post #2239 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post

Yeah, the lack of sub-bass is reason why ER4 sounds so cold.  Lots of people have been saying, it's neutral. Yada, yada, but to my ears it lacked some warmth for it to sound fun or even neutral looking at that graph.  There are lots of graphs out there, the one you posted is perceived FR, not sure how that was measure as most graph shows that ER4 is pretty neutral, but insertion dependent.  I'm not a fan of ER4 as I got rid of it.
I agree. The lack of sub bass and comfort is primarily why my search didn't stop with the er4s.
post #2240 of 5963
Got my pair of Tenore for 3 days now and they sounded very bassy at first listen but they are getting more neutralish with still stronger bass. But on some track the bass still too strong for my preference but on others it sound oh so good. I think they are kippers just for those special tracks. I do enjoy the KC06 for the other tracks
post #2241 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinster View Post

Got my pair of Tenore for 3 days now and they sounded very bassy at first listen but they are getting more neutralish with still stronger bass. But on some track the bass still too strong for my preference but on others it sound oh so good. I think they are kippers just for those special tracks. I do enjoy the KC06 for the other tracks

 

I enjoy both the KC06's and the Tenores as well. They are both awesome.

 

Which tips are you using on the Tenores? I keep reverting back to the mid sized stock tips.

post #2242 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinster View Post

Got my pair of Tenore for 3 days now and they sounded very bassy at first listen but they are getting more neutralish with still stronger bass. But on some track the bass still too strong for my preference but on others it sound oh so good. I think they are kippers just for those special tracks. I do enjoy the KC06 for the other tracks

 

I'm starting to believe mine broke in. I just remember having the initial impression that they sounded excellent but on tracks like BT's tomahawk they were very bassy. Now that track sounds perfectly reference it's insane. I wish I had payed attention more to it. I'll keep an eye on my next few sets and give impressions as I break them in.

post #2243 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

I'm starting to believe mine broke in. I just remember having the initial impression that they sounded excellent but on tracks like BT's tomahawk they were very bassy. Now that track sounds perfectly reference it's insane. I wish I had payed attention more to it. I'll keep an eye on my next few sets and give impressions as I break them in.

 

That would be very useful, thanks!

post #2244 of 5963
U guys lost me....all I know is my pair sounded v textured last evening at a cafe,
Telling myself this is a darn good buy. Sorry Great Buy:-)
post #2245 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

I'm starting to believe mine broke in. I just remember having the initial impression that they sounded excellent but on tracks like BT's tomahawk they were very bassy. Now that track sounds perfectly reference it's insane. I wish I had payed attention more to it. I'll keep an eye on my next few sets and give impressions as I break them in.

Have you thought of the possibility that bass has degraded instead?  There is definately a FR change after having run these numbers of hours.  The vocals and high end has come forward.  Mid bass is not very strong or punchy, not that I prefer punchy mid bass.  There is something wrong with the high end where the sound is congested, it sounds like all the sounds blended or smeared to each other that there is confusion or no clear separation.  Of course solo vocals clear of different simultaneous sounds don't run into this problem.  

 

My source is Objective combo which my other iems has no trouble with.  All my other iems are BA based.  

 

It would be nice if somebody measure these phones can get a hold of 3 of them for possiblity of variances and measure them initially, and measure them after they have run for a duration to see how much FR changes there were.  This could be interesting for those that don't believe in burn-in.  :p


Edited by SilverEars - 5/31/14 at 8:38pm
post #2246 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post

 

I'm starting to believe mine broke in. I just remember having the initial impression that they sounded excellent but on tracks like BT's tomahawk they were very bassy. Now that track sounds perfectly reference it's insane. I wish I had payed attention more to it. I'll keep an eye on my next few sets and give impressions as I break them in.
Have you thought of the possibility that bass has degraded instead?  There is definately a FR change after having run these numbers of hours.  The vocals and high end has come forward.  Mid bass is not very strong or punchy, not that I prefer punchy mid bass.  There is something wrong with the high end where the sound is congested, it sounds like all the sounds blended or smeared to each other that there is confusion or no clear separation.  Of course solo vocals clear of different simultaneous sounds don't run into this problem.  

My source is Objective combo which my other iems has no trouble with.  All my other iems are BA based.  

It would be nice if somebody measure these phones can get a hold of 3 of them for possiblity of variances and measure them initially, and measure them after they have run for a duration to see how much FR changes there were.  This could be interesting for those that don't believe in burn-in.  tongue.gif
I don't thik there was any degredation, just that either the bass lowered in level or the mids and highs raised in level. It happened fairly quickly with mine and hasn't changed since.
post #2247 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Have you thought of the possibility that bass has degraded instead?  There is definately a FR change after having run these numbers of hours.  The vocals and high end has come forward.  Mid bass is not very strong or punchy, not that I prefer punchy mid bass.  There is something wrong with the high end where the sound is congested, it sounds like all the sounds blended or smeared to each other that there is confusion or no clear separation.  Of course solo vocals clear of different simultaneous sounds don't run into this problem.  

 

My source is Objective combo which my other iems has no trouble with.  All my other iems are BA based.  

 

It would be nice if somebody measure these phones can get a hold of 3 of them for possiblity of variances and measure them initially, and measure them after they have run for a duration to see how much FR changes there were.  This could be interesting for those that don't believe in burn-in.  :p

 

I also though that burn in benefits were mostly psychoacoustic, till i got to test them in action with multiple iems of the same model. I still find it hard to believe that a driver could need 100 hours of use to find its intended sound but i also can't deny that it might be possible. Usually the first and most apparent change happens to the lower region, as the driver loosens up the bass becomes tighter/more controlled. A thing that sometimes get confused for the effects of burn in is the softening of the flanges. Dynamic drivers in general are more sensitive to differences in flanges and types of insertion since they push more air than single/dual ba. That's why If you like your treble, you should go for flanges with a wider boar and avoid deep insertion because it can greatly alter the shape of their openings.

 

As for their presentation, dynamic drivers produce sound with more decay while simultaneously having more bandwidth than single or dual ba solutions, which results in a more blended presentation. BA solutions have the upper hand in separation but they can't reproduce the natural decay of some instruments and have trouble with dynamic range and bass impact. Size is an important limiting factor with iems, so there is always a tradeoff, especially among different technologies.


Edited by SkiesOfAzel - 5/31/14 at 9:55pm
post #2248 of 5963

i just switched back to the bi-flange meelec tips.  I like these even more than the spiral dots

Quote:
Originally Posted by waynes world View Post
 

 

I enjoy both the KC06's and the Tenores as well. They are both awesome.

 

Which tips are you using on the Tenores? I keep reverting back to the mid sized stock tips.

post #2249 of 5963

I had an odd experience though.  Out of box fell in love with tenores, then after burn in of about 10-15hrs, i thought they sounded different, almost boring.  I let them burn in for 3 straight days, witch would put me up around 90hrs, and they sound better than ever.  Now, it could of been my mood the day i tried them and didnt like them, maybe sinus issues ( although i had and still have sinus problems now) that may of affected it.  But when the Zero Audios 1st got hyped up (i went with basso at time) i thought i remember more than 1 person having similar issue.  

post #2250 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Yeah, the lack of sub-bass is reason why ER4 sounds so cold.  Lots of people have been saying, it's neutral. Yada, yada, but to my ears it lacked some warmth for it to sound fun or even neutral looking at that graph.  There are lots of graphs out there, the one you posted is perceived FR, not sure how that was measure as most graph shows that ER4 is pretty neutral, but insertion dependent.  I'm not a fan of ER4 as I got rid of it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Have you thought of the possibility that bass has degraded instead?  There is definately a FR change after having run these numbers of hours.  The vocals and high end has come forward.  Mid bass is not very strong or punchy, not that I prefer punchy mid bass.  There is something wrong with the high end where the sound is congested, it sounds like all the sounds blended or smeared to each other that there is confusion or no clear separation.  Of course solo vocals clear of different simultaneous sounds don't run into this problem.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Oh my gawd lucident, you love them so much, you sleep with them?  :ph34r: Now, lucident takes break-in further than other by sleeping with them.  One day, they may actually get broken-in.  Anyway, I'm trying to like these.  The stage is larger than my CK-10, but dat treble. Too thick and tinnny now, My V3 and CK-10 has the micro treble for fine details.

 

I have to say that your descriptions are all very odd to me. Lack of subbass makes the ER4 sound cold? Warmth comes from midbass, not subbass.

Why would you call the bass 'degraded' if the sound has improved?

Why would it have trouble with congested music? Drivers are better at reproducing complex sounds than they are at producing simple sounds like pure tones.

How can something sound thick and tinny? 'Tinny' means the opposite of thick.

What is 'micro treble', and can anyone demonstrate that this actually exists?

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