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Zero Audio - ZH-DX200 Carbo Tenore | ZH-DX210 Carbo Basso (Carbon & Aluminium IEM) thread - Page 134

Poll Results: Which one would you order??

 
  • 73% (274)
    Carbo Tenore
  • 26% (97)
    Carbo Basso
371 Total Votes  
post #1996 of 5963

I like the UE900 tips mentioned earlier in the thread. Good seal, tad more bass, and just a slightly better SQ in general.

post #1997 of 5963

Sound is tight for sure.  It's lacking tiny bit of vocal textures.  I sounds a bit smooth, lacking fine micro details IMO.  I say it competes with $300 phones.


Edited by SilverEars - 5/27/14 at 7:13pm
post #1998 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrett View Post
 

All of this variance should be measured. If you own one pair and are happy with them, what is the problem? Why should it be related to the dealer? This is how the paranoia starts. Our own moods, the changing weather, your IEM fit, and other variables are just as likely a cause for small differences. If you received pairs at different times, maybe some have more hours of burn-in than others. None of this testing is controlled.

 

People use hilariously poor critical thinking in analyzing equipment; even the most respected reviewers on this site (minus some science-oriented folks in the science of sound section).  People literally pay thousands of dollars for something that someone with a basic understanding of electrical engineering could tell you will not affect sound quality. 

 

That's why people like Rin are so useful to the community.  I've seen the most respected posters on this forum fail to detect a massive suckout in the audible range and when confronted with it deny it's significance. 

 

Where do you draw the line?  Maybe there is more variation in production of IEMs than we're typically aware, but it's only with these cheaper IEMs that people have multiple pairs of the same model to compare?

 

 

There are a bunch of people who clearly enjoy the interactions they have talking about new gear here on head-fi more than the gear itself.  They like the hobbyist angle of being able to "be an expert" on a newly released IEM and the attention and respect they get from others. 

 

It's extremely fascinating stuff for anyone interested in consumer psychology.   

post #1999 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_jones View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrett View Post
 

All of this variance should be measured. If you own one pair and are happy with them, what is the problem? Why should it be related to the dealer? This is how the paranoia starts. Our own moods, the changing weather, your IEM fit, and other variables are just as likely a cause for small differences. If you received pairs at different times, maybe some have more hours of burn-in than others. None of this testing is controlled.

 

People use hilariously poor critical thinking in analyzing equipment; even the most respected reviewers on this site (minus some science-oriented folks in the science of sound section).  People literally pay thousands of dollars for something that someone with a basic understanding of electrical engineering could tell you will not affect sound quality. 

 

That's why people like Rin are so useful to the community.  I've seen the most respected posters on this forum fail to detect a massive suckout in the audible range and when confronted with it deny it's significance. 

 

Where do you draw the line?  Maybe there is more variation in production of IEMs than we're typically aware, but it's only with these cheaper IEMs that people have multiple pairs of the same model to compare?

 

 

There are a bunch of people who clearly enjoy the interactions they have talking about new gear here on head-fi more than the gear itself.  They like the hobbyist angle of being able to "be an expert" on a newly released IEM and the attention and respect they get from others. 

 

It's extremely fascinating stuff for anyone interested in consumer psychology.   

 

As I always say, and as people always hate me for saying, the mind is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for. It is extremely easy to hear something you are listening for, even if it isn't there. I personally find scientific measurements in a case like this to be more useful than anyone's listening test. And unfortunately, it's impossible to do an easy comparison of earphones, because they require removal and insertion and reconnecting, etc. etc. That small time lapse is more than people think in really comparing something critically. Basically, it's not as easy as people think.

 

...With that being said, I've talked with gnarlsagan a lot, and if it were anyone else I'd be more skeptical. However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think I have a pretty good idea of how keen he is with sound interpretation. We've both tested many of the same earphones and had extremely if not identical impressions of them. We've also discussed some science of sound and whatnot. So, while there are many possibilities, if he says he is hearing differences, I would believe there are differences. The question is where do they come from? Manufacturing inconsistencies, resellers, shipping conditions, etc. etc.? Some of these might sound ridiculous, but I wouldn't say they aren't likely. It seems most likely that it is manufacturing. However, without large amounts of data it's pretty hard to gauge.

 

It seems as though most people that try them have very positive impressions and are very impressed. That in itself shows that whatever differences there are, they seem to be at least consistent enough to recommend based on their overall sound. One might be bassier than the other or have less treble, but the differences should be less than that of going between the er4s and shure 535 for instance. Anyway, just shooting out theories, but i will keep recommending them for now and I'm eager to try the next three pairs coming to me.

post #2000 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
 

 

As I always say, and as people always hate me for saying, the mind is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for. It is extremely easy to hear something you are listening for, even if it isn't there. I personally find scientific measurements in a case like this to be more useful than anyone's listening test. And unfortunately, it's impossible to do an easy comparison of earphones, because they require removal and insertion and reconnecting, etc. etc. That small time lapse is more than people think in really comparing something critically. Basically, it's not as easy as people think.

 

...With that being said, I've talked with gnarlsagan a lot, and if it were anyone else I'd be more skeptical. However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think I have a pretty good idea of how keen he is with sound interpretation. We've both tested many of the same earphones and had extremely if not identical impressions of them. We've also discussed some science of sound and whatnot. So, while there are many possibilities, if he says he is hearing differences, I would believe there are differences. The question is where do they come from? Manufacturing inconsistencies, resellers, shipping conditions, etc. etc.? Some of these might sound ridiculous, but I wouldn't say they aren't likely. It seems most likely that it is manufacturing. However, without large amounts of data it's pretty hard to gauge.

 

It seems as though most people that try them have very positive impressions and are very impressed. That in itself shows that whatever differences there are, they seem to be at least consistent enough to recommend based on their overall sound. One might be bassier than the other or have less treble, but the differences should be less than that of going between the er4s and shure 535 for instance. Anyway, just shooting out theories, but i will keep recommending them for now and I'm eager to try the next three pairs coming to me.

 

 

No argument here.  I'm very much open to the idea that what gnarlsagan is hearing is reflective of actual differences in the IEMs. 

 

The problem can be when you detect flaws in critical thinking in other areas of their analysis.  Then you're in a position of having to guess what's likely to be influenced by "the mind" and what is likely to be reliable based on their perceptions. 

 

I can read a review of someone who has strong language skills and describes an IEM/headphone very similarly to how I would, but if they're talking in the next breath about the amazing changes their gold plated cryo cable makes to the sound, it doesn't necessarily mean they use good critical thinking skills.  

 

Even if you get past the critical thinking problem, the consumer psychology aspect is even more powerful IMO.  You have a relationship with gnarlsagan based on history and trust that makes you willing to suspend or change your standard of evidence.  Also, you mention that it isn't enough of a problem to warrant a change in your "recommendation".  From my perspective, you're allowing status judgments into your analysis.  People feed their ego through their purchases here.  

 

I notice posters often continue to recommend a product after they purchase it and something comes out after the fact that could cast it in a negative light.  There's re-sale value after all, isn't there?  This stuff is deeply programmed into us.  Those same respected posters that I mentioned couldn't detect a massive suckout in the audible range continued to recommend the IEMs. 

 

When the ability to return the Tenores was brought up, a couple of fanboyz dismissed it as a factor in whether that should be a factor in purchasing.  And what do you know, now we have members claiming there are major differences between what should be identical models.  Do you imagine I'm surprised that you'd maintain your recommendation?   :)

 

 

 


Edited by roy_jones - 5/27/14 at 8:24pm
post #2001 of 5963

The Zero Audio Carbo Tenore

 

 

 

 

:)

post #2002 of 5963

Out of curiosity, those with multiple pairs from multiple vendors, do all of them have the VGP 2013/2014 sticker as shown in ronnel0918's picture above? That sticker should indicate it's part of a newer batch.

post #2003 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_jones View Post

 
No argument here.  I'm very much open to the idea that what gnarlsagan is hearing is reflective of actual differences in the IEMs. 

The problem can be when you detect flaws in critical thinking in other areas of their analysis.  Then you're in a position of having to guess what's likely to be influenced by "the mind" and what is likely to be reliable based on their perceptions. 

I can read a review of someone who has strong language skills and describes an IEM/headphone very similarly to how I would, but if they're talking in the next breath about the amazing changes their gold plated cryo cable makes to the sound, it doesn't necessarily mean they use good critical thinking skills.  

Even if you get past the critical thinking problem, the consumer psychology aspect is even more powerful IMO.  You have a relationship with gnarlsagan based on history and trust that makes you willing to suspend or change your standard of evidence.  Also, you mention that it isn't enough of a problem to warrant a change in your "recommendation".  From my perspective, you're allowing status judgments into your analysis.  People feed their ego through their purchases here.  

From experience I've known him to use logic and not be subject to exactly that "gold plated cryo" mentality. Therefore, from experience his opinion (to me) was more valid than one from that exact type of person you mentioned. I'm simply basing my opinion on the logical conclusions I made. I would say the same thing of you, if you explained the way you tested things and those methods ended up being the same objective way that gnarlsagan tests things from my experience.

I personally have no ego build-up-desire with this forum. I can't stand that sort of thing. That's exactly what I believe stems from the placebo based, price based, cryo cable nonsense that happens all too often. Not that there's anything wrong with buying whatever cable whacks your whammy, but to go on and tout its sonic benefits when there are none makes me sick. "this amp sounds better than that amp because it costs more", even though they measure identically. I call that nonsense unless a solid explanation of the differences can be verified to be true, which is almost never the case.
Quote:
Also, you mention that it isn't enough of a problem to warrant a change in your "recommendation".  From my perspective, you're allowing status judgments into your analysis.  People feed their ego through their purchases here.  

I notice posters often continue to recommend a product after they purchase it and something comes out after the fact that could cast it in a negative light.  There's re-sale value after all, isn't there?  This stuff is deeply programmed into us.  Those same respected posters that I mentioned couldn't detect a massive suckout in the audible range continued to recommend the IEMs. 

When the ability to return the Tenores was brought up, a couple of fanboyz dismissed it as a factor in whether that should be a factor in purchasing.  And what do you know, now we have members claiming there are major differences between what should be identical models.  Do you imagine I'm surprised that you'd maintain your recommendation?   smily_headphones1.gif

I was strictly speaking statistically. The number of people that have heard and described a similar sound is reasonable and the number of issues is pretty low currently and no disrespect intended, but mostly isolated to gnarlsagan. :-P It's also hard to say how much variance is considered acceptable and what each user considers "noticeable". So again, logically based on that data, there is no way anyone can clearly say there are problems with the tenore. Can a pool of 10-20 people even be used as an accurate statistic? I say not really. I've had worse statistic variance/results purchasing things from different stores. Does that mean I can say anything statistically about them? Not really. Especially since here, most people are more critical about their gear, whether hearing a change or not, and more likely to comment about it.

Therefore, I don't believe any solid conclusion can be made so far, so why should I stop recommending them? :-P I think the general sound, whether bassier or not, is described fairly consistently as being true to the tenore "tone", which in my opinion is better than every other iem I've heard. Therefore why wouldn't i recommend it? :-o The mh1 has nothing but "channel imbalance" issues plastered over the mh1 thread. I've ordered about 10 pairs now, most from different sources and never had even a single variance in the sound or imbalance. But again, statistically what is 10 people complaining about imbalance in a pool of thousands of users that we don't have data from? :-o

I'm not discounting the claims of variance at all. It may not seem like it, but I'm not trying to say you should ignore those claims. I'm just saying you need to look at everything all together in context, as a whole. Statistically, we have very little data. My very limited experience has only been positive. Gnarlsagan's experience has been at least somewhat negative. Therefore, I'm not going to jump to any statistical conclusions, but I will take everything he says seriously and just be aware that there might be an issue. I wouldn't dismiss that or any return issues when factoring in any purchase. I usually tell people more details than they even want to know. Ha. I even told one user who asked about the ebay seller I use, that he handles warranty claims for you, but you pay for shipping because the warranty isn't valid in the US, etc. etc. We live in a "buyer beware" society, which I think is sad. I prefer a full disclosure attitude personally.

O.k. o.k., I know this is getting long. End.
Edited by luisdent - 5/27/14 at 10:50pm
post #2004 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterDLai View Post
 

Out of curiosity, those with multiple pairs from multiple vendors, do all of them have the VGP 2013/2014 sticker as shown in ronnel0918's picture above? That sticker should indicate it's part of a newer batch.

 

Mine does. And this could very well play a part in the "what seller is it from" debate. Not saying this is an issue with the tenore, but the pfe112 first edition has a cable problem that caused a lot of known failures that the company acknowledged and redesigned to make it last longer. When I bought my pfe112 I made sure it was a V1 on the box or something like that to make sure it was a newer version. That's always a possibility with these things. Not to start any rumors, but just something to consider.


Edited by luisdent - 5/27/14 at 10:28pm
post #2005 of 5963
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post


From experience I've known him to use logic and not be subject to exactly that "gold plated cryo" mentality. Therefore, from experience his opinion (to me) was more valid than one from that exact type of person you mentioned. I'm simply basing my opinion on the logical conclusions I made. I would say the same thing of you, if you explained the way you tested things and those methods ended up being the same objective way that gnarlsagan tests things from my experience.

I personally have no ego build-up-desire with this forum. I can't stand that sort of thing. That's exactly what I believe stems from the placebo based, price based, cryo cable nonsense that happens all too often. Not that there's anything wrong with buying whatever cable whacks your whammy, but to go on and tout its sonic benefits when there are none makes me sick. "this amp sounds better than that amp because it costs more", even though they measure identically. I call that nonsense unless a solid explanation of the differences can be verified to be true, which is almost never the case.
I was strictly speaking statistically. The number of people that have heard and described a similar sound is reasonable and the number of issues is pretty low currently and no disrespect intended, but mostly isolated to gnarlsagan. :-P It's also hard to say how much variance is considered acceptable and what each user considers "noticeable". So again, logically based on that data, there is no way anyone can clearly say there are problems with the tenore. Can a pool of 10-20 people even be used as an accurate statistic? I say not really. I've had worse statistic variance/results purchasing things from different stores. Does that mean I can say anything statistically about them? Not really. Especially since here, most people are more critical about their gear, whether hearing a change or not, and more likely to comment about it.

Therefore, I don't believe any solid conclusion can be made so far, so why should I stop recommending them? :-P I think the general sound, whether bassier or not, is described fairly consistently as being true to the tenore "tone", which in my opinion is better than every other iem I've heard. Therefore why wouldn't i recommend it? :-o The mh1 has nothing but "channel imbalance" issues plastered over the mh1 thread. I've ordered about 10 pairs now, most from different sources and never had even a single variance in the sound or imbalance. But again, statistically what is 10 people complaining about imbalance in a pool of thousands of users that we don't have data from? :-o

I'm not discounting the claims of variance at all. It may not seem like it, but I'm not trying to say you should ignore those claims. I'm just saying you need to look at everything all together in context, as a whole. Statistically, we have very little data. My very limited experience has only been positive. Gnarlsagan's experience has been at least somewhat negative. Therefore, I'm not going to jump to any statistical conclusions, but I will take everything he says seriously and just be aware that there might be an issue. I wouldn't dismiss that or any return issues when factoring in any purchase. I usually tell people more details than they even want to know. Ha. I even told one user who asked about the ebay seller I use, that he handles warranty claims for you, but you pay for shipping because the warranty isn't valid in the US, etc. etc. We live in a "buyer beware" society, which I think is sad. I prefer a full disclosure attitude personally.

O.k. o.k., I know this is getting long. End.

 

 

I admit I used your other post to get on my soap box about problems that I don't necessarily think you're guilty of.  I'm glad you went on to dismiss your own initial attempt to suggest there was meaning in the statistical argument you presented.  I'd be curious to know what would qualify as a deal-breaker to stop you from recommending the tenore. 

 

Just for the sake of argument, if Rin were to test it and it showed to have a massive suckout in the audible spectrum, would you revise your opinion then?  Because it seems that you're using your enjoyment of the IEM as the basis for your recommendation.  The respected posters who continued to recommend seriously flawed IEMs used the exact same rationale. The fact they discovered the IEM had a suckout didn't alter their enjoyment.  

 

I disagree on the issue of ego and the social effect of posting on head-fi.  None of us are immune to it.  Certainly none of us who post video review recommendations.  Fact is, you're putting yourself out there when you do that and there's an automatic ego component.  Not because you're a narcissist, but because you're human.  You most certainly underestimate the social effect posting on head-fi has on your motivations, IMHO.  Very hard to explain the behavior of ourselves as consumers here without acknowledging that component.   


Edited by roy_jones - 5/27/14 at 11:17pm
post #2006 of 5963
For the record Inks and Shotgunshane have found differences in their sets, both having to do with bass. How many people actually have multiple sets to compare?

The overall sound sig remains the same, but the differences between the warmest and brightest of my five pairs was like going from the F111 to the ER4S. A likely cause might be a variation in the amount of foam used to dampen the barrel (assuming some kind of dampening material is used at all). If I was more adventurous I'd open one up and try removing some of this alleged material.

It is a great IEM when it sounds like the ER4S, which my current pair from woodlandhills_cass on eBay do. My Gigashop pair is also great compared to just about every other iem I've heard, but it is slightly warmer. Some people may actually prefer this pair, which I do myself for certain music and listening scenarios.

And to roy_jones, I agree that the social affect of the hype train is very real, but some people are less affected than others. Given new graphs or info of acoustic failings, I'm usually first to jump off the train.
post #2007 of 5963
Mine sound about the same, maybe one is tiny bit bassier but I haven't had time to fully test

Mids and highs should be consistent among units

But I think there may be bass differences because of that big vent, but I'm skeptical of the unit variance reports mentioned
Edited by Inks - 5/28/14 at 12:01am
post #2008 of 5963

Got the Basso's today as well (previously purchased Tenore). Quite different from the Tenore. Very bassy from start. Been burning them in for 12+ hours straight, maybe some boominess went away - seems so. Anyway started trying out different tips. Sound signature can change a lot. Favorite tip at the moment is a strange tip I received with my MH1 - all the tips where rounded except one which is "pointy" looking. That is the one I'm using and bass seems less boomy and tighter. They isolate quite bad and are not very ergonomic but I like the sound more. Also vocals seems better. Still it's different from the Tenore and well.. interesting. Tenore for me lacks a little midbass and I believe it's affecting vocals because in some songs they sound plain off/lifeless. Too bad first impression seldom last - tomorrow I might think different of them.

post #2009 of 5963

I just received my Tenore today and everything else was put on hold as i put it to the test. I first checked my Tenore to see if there's any defects, channel imbalance and driver flex and thankfully I've found none. I must say it's pretty nice phones for the price but definitely not a game changer for me. I've found that the Tenore is nice and smooth but somehow it doesn't sound as natural to me as the new generation GR07 Classic paired with my large Phonak tips which has more prominent mids and much more natural highs although at the expense of a tinge of sibilance whenever sibilance is present in the recording.  I've never liked the stock tips from Vsonic that's why my impressions are all based on the GR07 paired with my Phonak tips. I find that the GR07 (with Phonak tips) has a more honest response rather than trying to smoothen and masking the flaws in the recording. As for percussive instruments' fast transient response, the new  generation GR07 Classic (with Phonak tips) eats the Tenore alive. Sub bass on the Tenore is very prominent (stock medium size tips) but I find it slightly over accentuated. Somehow GR07's sub bass hits the sweet spot for me, just the right amount and not diverting all my attention to it. As for the treble frequencies, I find overly smoothed out treble seems to sound quite unnatural to me due to the fact that I've performed with many bands over the years and I'm very familiar with the sound of a good acoustic drum set and cymbals and yes...the real acoustic cymbals can sound very sibilant if they're hit hard enough especially the crash cymbals and hi-hats.

 

The strength of the Tenore lies in the sub bass region which gives good sub bass rumble albeit just a tad too much for my taste. Another advantage is the Tenore's smooth treble response though at the expense of sacrificing a more detailed presentation. Mids on the other hand is a tad recessed. Percussive transient attack is there but not fast and snappy enough to give a good impact especially on drums and percussive intruments. As for soundstage, the Tenore is on par with the GR07. One good thing I've discovered is that you can tone down the sub bass by switching to the large stock tips which somehow tones down the sub bass a bit. I think I'm experiencing this due to the fit of the large tips that only allow a very shallow fit as compared to the medium tips. Another point to consider is that I'd stay away from an IEM manufacturer that has inconsistencies between their IEMs of the same model. To be honest, there shouldn't be any sound quality inconsistencies between models at all. If it is then the product design is flawed to begin with.

 

To round it all up the Tenore is a good budget IEM but it definitely can't replace the GR07 and ER4. For now, I'll just keep my Tenore as a backup IEM but I won't see much use of it since it'll take me quite a while to break my ER4, GR07 and Phonaks.


Edited by Francisk - 5/31/14 at 1:05pm
post #2010 of 5963

Francisk, I agree with your mutha f**kin review.  I notice there is lack of details with these, but it's very good, much better than phones many times expensive.

 

Anyway, I compared with my CK-10, these are not better.  That was just some real BS to lay out here.  I can't believe you guys would hype these up that much.  I don't have my EX-1000 anymore, and I don't think these are as detailed and airy as EX-1000 from I recall.

 

Francisk has correct assessment IMO.  This pretty much proves that what measures is measures, and what we hear doesn't line-up with graphs exactly.  Just because of linear response doesn't mean these are the next UERM.


Edited by SilverEars - 5/28/14 at 2:18am
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