or Connect
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › [REVIEW] Aurisonics ASG-2 & 2.5 (with many comparisons)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[REVIEW] Aurisonics ASG-2 & 2.5 (with many comparisons) - Page 151

post #2251 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by klfl View Post

The problem of subjective opinion is a lot of people lack the ability to accurately describe the sound they hear and this can be very misleading for others. This ability takes both talent and experience, how many phones one own or how long a person is in the hobby does not always indicate their appreciation skill level.

The issue in having is that I don't believe adding two tweeters would suddenly cause sub-bass to entirely drop out in the system. Measuring the ASG-1 (1.3 rev), which uses the same full-range driver, I get entirely different results. One driver begins to roll off around 100 Hz while the other begins at around 50-80 Hz. Note I say roll off, not drop out. They don't ever hit -10 dB from the largest bass peak ever from 20 Hz on up.

That, and only that, is the reason why I say the measurements are off. No, these don't have a sub-bass focus, more of a lower bass focus to my ears overall.
post #2252 of 6762
Gnarl, Tiny, here's what I was attempting to say:

Let's use 3k and 50hz. Assume both ER4S and ASG-2 had no problems with the measurements and for the ASG-2, I'll use the measurement that only dropped 10db by 20hz.

On the ER4S, you bring 50hz upto 80db and 3hz will hit at 90db. That 3k over twice as loud as the 50hz.

Now bring the ASG-2 at 50hz to 80db and 3k will hit somewhere around 76db. Here, the 50hz is 1.5x louder than 3k.

Which will "sound" like there is more subbass?

Obviously this will change if you change the frequency points. All I'm saying is it's not so clear cut in regular music listening conditions, which one has more subbass. It could change on a track to track basis, the perception, due to relativity.

Yes yes, I'm not taking into account in ear resonances etc...

And then there's James' 12db graph. frown.gif
Edited by vwinter - 8/1/13 at 6:59am
post #2253 of 6762
Thread Starter 

I understand gnarl's point somewhat. But I ultimately think he's mistaken.

 

I have the HF5, and I'm told that the ER4S extends ever so slightly further

 

dc21c2e51fc68ceba92f4e6d9251b38c.png

 

 

 

With the HF5, I hear literally nothing where the lower sub-bass should be in tracks like Danza Kuduro, Limit to Your Love, etc. I'm talking below 35hz. What I do hear may be confused for sub-bass. 

 

With the ASG-2, I hear all the tones down to around 15hz. The HF5's bass is clean and low enough to be confused for low bass. So what gnarl is hearing is clean midbass, not more sub-bass.

 

gnarl said it himself in the Ety love thread. When he put in the red filters and boosted the 30hz by 6db, he heard bass lines that he'd never heard before with the Etys.

post #2254 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwinter View Post

Gnarl, Tiny, here's what I was attempting to say:

Let's use 3k and 50hz. Assume both ER4S and ASG-2 had no problems with the measurements and for the ASG-2, I'll use the measurement that only dropped 10db by 20hz.

On the ER4S, you bring 50hz upto 80db and 3hz will hit at 90db. That 3k over twice as loud as the 50hz.

Now bring the ASG-2 at 50hz to 80db and 3k will hit somewhere around 76db. Here, the 50hz is 1.5x louder than 3k.

Which will "sound" like there is more subbass?

Obviously this will change if you change the frequency points. All I'm saying is it's not so clear cut in regular music listening conditions, which one has more subbass. It could change on a track to track basis, the perception, due to relativity.

Yes yes, I'm not taking into account in ear resonances etc...

And then there's James' 12db graph. frown.gif

 

I'm gong to compare compensated graphs provided by Rin rather than uncompensated between the HF5 and ASG-2...  The HF5 actually has a resonance peak at 3kHz of about 12 dB, this is standard for the DF compensation which Etymotic kind of uses (they do slope it off a bit).  If you compare 3 kHz on both, you'll see that the 50 Hz will be 9 dB up on the right driver while the left driver is actually going to be a couple dB down in contrast to the 3 kHz.  For the Etymotic you'll find that it'll be about 4 dB up on both drivers...  So from this reference point, at its greatest, yes, the ASG has about 5 dB on the Etymotic accounting for roughtly 1.3-1.5 perceived loudness (assuming 10 dB is 2x as loud and increases non-linearly).

 

The thing is, we normally compare from the 1 kHz range (everything is equalized to that point on a compensated graph).  In that case the ASG-2 is actually light in that department by a few dB for the right channel and about 10 dB for the right while the HF5 is actually going to be up 1 dB.  In this case, the HF5 has more 50 Hz than the ASG.  You are right that it's going to change from each frequency point, we generally use the 1 kHz as reference (as a standard).

 

_______Don't feel like double posting_______

 

With all that said, I do want to make one more statement.  Below are my measurements for the ASG-1 (1.3 revision), they use the same full-range driver for the tweeters.  The tweeters, I assume don't cover the 300 Hz range (or lower), so anti-resonances are impossible to adjust the bass in such a way that is shown in Rin's measurements.

 

 

Note a few things about the graph, first is that my system doesn't get good sub-bass, but it can be compensated for and has been.  The compensation for the bass was used and set up to match both Rin's and Tyll's graphs.  The RE-400, Nocs NS-800, UE900, W4, list goes on were all used in calibration.  My graphs have matched up with just about all of Rin's, even my H-200 graph which was measured and compensated before Rin's.  That said, I'm confident in the compensation.

 

Even then, if you look at the raw graphs, they don't dip as much as Rin figures in his.  The real story is in the compensated graphs, for the bass anyway.  With the comparison at the 1 kHz, you'll find 50 Hz about 8-9 dB up from the left driver and 10-11 dB up for the right as opposed to Rin's up 2 and down 10 dB. 

 

So I ask this, if you truly feel that adding 2 tweeters will cause a complete drop out in the bass below 100-150 Hz, OK, trust Rin's graph.  However, if you feel that it's highly improbably for two tweeters to cause that drop out...  Well...  Then something happened with the measurements or the ASG-2.  I personally have never seen tweeters added to any system (headphones, speaker, etc.) that caused the bass to entirely drop out like that.  Probabilistically speaking, I don't feel that the additional tweeters caused the drop (something else did that's unique to a few ASG-2). 

post #2255 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurisonics View Post

Sorry to hear about your bike. Never forget be careful on those things, its not you usually its the guy not paying attention or don't see you that is the problem.

Thankfully it disconnected when I was at a red light. Right after pulling the clutch in to hit first gear when the light turned green.

Yeah, I noticed people cutting me off quite a bit. I don't go out much at the moment tho(did I ever? lol). Will provably only ride for work and depositing money in my bank(40-48miles from home).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurisonics View Post

Not really... As I have found in over 20 years of audio engineering and testing, slight nuances in the way something is tested will cause vast anomalies or differences to occur. People perceive sound differently from person to person and from ear to ear depending on the seal you get, fit, cables, sound source and at least a hundred other variables also. Everyone has an opinion and that is perfectly fine.

So the graph is representative of how they should be tuned then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwinter View Post

That makes sense!
But to get to the level of subbass in db's comfortably on the ER4S, the midrange would likely make you deaf. If you agree with this exaggeration, then it's really apples to oranges.

Would that lvl of subbass go well with most music? I mean, I liked reading rattle your teeth bass response because I planed to use it for dubstep but would hate to be stuck at that sound sig. Is why I liked the idea of a bass port, it just turned out to be useless for me... 😕
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

Can't wait to hear these...

Can't wait for you to hear them...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurisonics View Post

Andy sent this as a response to an email the other day. I thought he made a good point.

As for re-tuning the device - this is the sound of the ASG-2. The IEM was designed and tuned for on-stage musicians. Their "listening environment" is drastically different to the one that you are trying to put the ASG-2 into. For some users - it is exactly what they want to hear. But it isn't for everyone.

We are following the threads fairly closely over here. And we are taking customer opinion under advisement. But it remains that we have had no complaints or concerns from the pro musician community regarding the sound signature of any of the ASG-1, AS-1, ASG-2 or the AS-2. We are incredibly privileged to have our products compared to others intended for music recreation, and even audiophile experiences - but there is a limit - you can't use a NASCAR vehicle for your weekly shopping runs.

That message was sent to me. I posted a screenshot in a post farther back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theogenes View Post

This is pretty easily explainable as confirmation bias on your part, given there other impressions that don't match up to Rin's graphs. Not trying to be confrontational, just pointing it out. Also, I've found my impressions to line up with garnlsagan's a few times before, so I want to be clear in saying I respect his opinion and am not contesting his views.

Honestly, there seems to me to be a bit of spirit of gleeful malevolence in the critiques of Rin and yourself, rather than the affably detached perspective of someone who simply has more input to offer for the betterment of everyone. If I'm misinterpreting that, then my apologies-- but it seems like you two are a little too glad to be raining on the parade of others to be the product of a truly scientific, empirical mindset.

To be clear, my G-2s sound just as great now as they did before the latest flurry of activity around Rin's graphs (as long as I don't plug them into the D100). My only other thought is that I'd like to try out one of the higher-end Etys at some point to see what a really flat, reference IEM sounds like, as I do tend to like that sound in my other gear.

Ok, I'm going to put my self on the chopping table again.

Wait... Let me put the last wall set on my fort:
-/^^^^^^\-
.|....[_]...|. []\(•_• /)[]

I've also tried to express my dissatisfaction with these phones as best and fairly as I can. However, I truthfully feel like saying "as a package and for the price, ASG 2's are crap". How's that?

-/^^^^^^\-
.|...[•_•]..|. "\(*o* ) "\(*o* ) "\(*o* )

Not only am I afraid of head-fi wrath, I don't feel experience enough, didn't want eke to never speak to me again, and wanted to make sure it wasn't just me and I was being fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuuketsuki View Post

I always find that it's in the presentation rather than the criticism itself. Naturally people will want to defend what they bought and enjoy, but if someone makes fair and reasonable points it seems to be more welcomes than overtly critical or harsh.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, but how one presents their opinions plays a large role in how their opinion will be received.

See above, lol.

I wanted to like these but I just can't.

I was honestly just sitting there shaking my head wile listening to music, thinking to myself: nope, I just can't accept this, it sounds so wrong-nope! nope! I can't do it. *sad face ensues
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

True. The problem is not everyone can afford expensive food and not have reliable reviews on said places to eat biggrin.gif. But it's just the way the cookie crumbles here. It takes experience in both the good and bad to gauge this place in terms of making purchases reliably. This is regarding the hobby as a whole.

And I failed. A sad sad $650 failure 😣
Quote:
Originally Posted by klfl View Post

The problem of subjective opinion is a lot of people lack the ability to accurately describe the sound they hear and this can be very misleading for others. This ability takes both talent and experience, how many phones one own or how long a person is in the hobby does not always indicate their appreciation skill level.

Sounds legit. Feel I'm one of them #lacksexperience

P.S. maybe this will also be helpfull.

I once took my HFI 580's to my bros house so he could try them. What I witness was him maxing his iPhone volume wile listening to his music. I sat there thinking to my self OMG! I could hear the music pouncing away at his eardrums wile sitting beside him.

It's not just him, most people I ask listen at higher lvls then myself. I even had one head-fi'er say my preferred volume lvl sounded dead to him on ASG 2's. He/they can comment on the pic below if they like.



I really rather not mess up my hearing tho, 😕
post #2256 of 6762

Before anyone sets out to argue with Unity is power just remember he has a right to his opinion and although it hurts to hear that from my perspective I can still respect it. Reading other threads about other products everyone cannot be happy about a particular product. I just bought two sets of another vendors product to try out over the weekend and I was greatly disappointed in them and will express my dissatisfaction to the company as well but it will be in an effort to help them make their products better not to beat up on them.

post #2257 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurisonics View Post

Before anyone sets out to argue with Unity is power just remember he has a right to his opinion and although it hurts to hear that from my perspective I can still respect it. Reading other threads about other products everyone cannot be happy about a particular product. I just bought two sets of another vendors product to try out over the weekend and I was greatly disappointed in them and will express my dissatisfaction to the company as well but it will be in an effort to help them make their products better not to beat up on them.

Bingo, wise words and thanks for reminding.
post #2258 of 6762
I don't think anybody will agree with me dale, at least not to the same degree... I think.
post #2259 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnityIsPower View Post

I don't think anybody will agree with me dale, at least not to the same degree... I think.

 

I can agree and see your point with the mids and treble, that's an easy one to see and explain.  The one I still can't explain is how dipped the sub-bass is (only explanation is a loss or seal or defective part on ASG-2)... That's what's baffling everyone.  I'll trust that you're hearing what you're hearing. 


Edited by tinyman392 - 8/1/13 at 11:02am
post #2260 of 6762
Guys, do not you feel this forum has gone to hell with all these charts many of which are meaningless in terms of ears experience. If techincal science could replace composers we would not have great music today. For me personally all these graphs are meaningless and my main judge are my ears and no one else. I could not care less if that Hz or that Khz, i even doubt we hear it that way. Besides this is hell boring.
post #2261 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gintaras View Post

For me personally all these graphs are meaningless and my main judge are my ears and no one else. I could not care less if that Hz or that Khz, i even doubt we hear it that way. Besides this is hell boring.

This sounds so wrong.
post #2262 of 6762
Unity mate, if i will go with this graphs to musical pros most likely they will laugh me out... The only one who cares about this will be audio engineer :-)

I also find musical ear experience in words telling me much more than any of these freaking graphs. And i met some people who would talk about graphs (in math or stat) without much understanding what is behind them.

Mate, i know you are good guy and you share opinions openly, but for god sake lets not substitute music sound discussion with technical profanity.
post #2263 of 6762
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnityIsPower View Post

I don't think anybody will agree with me dale, at least not to the same degree... I think.

You'll be fine. No one will disagree with you about not liking something. It's your opinion and your right.

About higher subbass levels, it depends on what you listen to. In general, it's to taste and can stay pretty clear of the mids if there's no midbass emphasis too. If you listen to organ music like the tocata that gintaras posted or full-on classical, it can be problematic. Otherwise, I can live with it just fine.

Btw, worst job of anonymizing data to protect the innocent EVER lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

tons of awesome (Click to show)
I'm gong to compare compensated graphs provided by Rin rather than uncompensated between the HF5 and ASG-2...  The HF5 actually has a resonance peak at 3kHz of about 12 dB, this is standard for the DF compensation which Etymotic kind of uses (they do slope it off a bit).  If you compare 3 kHz on both, you'll see that the 50 Hz will be 9 dB up on the right driver while the left driver is actually going to be a couple dB down in contrast to the 3 kHz.  For the Etymotic you'll find that it'll be about 4 dB up on both drivers...  So from this reference point, at its greatest, yes, the ASG has about 5 dB on the Etymotic accounting for roughtly 1.3-1.5 perceived loudness (assuming 10 dB is 2x as loud and increases non-linearly).

The thing is, we normally compare from the 1 kHz range (everything is equalized to that point on a compensated graph).  In that case the ASG-2 is actually light in that department by a few dB for the right channel and about 10 dB for the right while the HF5 is actually going to be up 1 dB.  In this case, the HF5 has more 50 Hz than the ASG.  You are right that it's going to change from each frequency point, we generally use the 1 kHz as reference (as a standard).

_______Don't feel like double posting_______

With all that said, I do want to make one more statement.  Below are my measurements for the ASG-1 (1.3 revision), they use the same full-range driver for the tweeters.  The tweeters, I assume don't cover the 300 Hz range (or lower), so anti-resonances are impossible to adjust the bass in such a way that is shown in Rin's measurements.




Note a few things about the graph, first is that my system doesn't get good sub-bass, but it can be compensated for and has been.  The compensation for the bass was used and set up to match both Rin's and Tyll's graphs.  The RE-400, Nocs NS-800, UE900, W4, list goes on were all used in calibration.  My graphs have matched up with just about all of Rin's, even my H-200 graph which was measured and compensated before Rin's.  That said, I'm confident in the compensation.

Even then, if you look at the raw graphs, they don't dip as much as Rin figures in his.  The real story is in the compensated graphs, for the bass anyway.  With the comparison at the 1 kHz, you'll find 50 Hz about 8-9 dB up from the left driver and 10-11 dB up for the right as opposed to Rin's up 2 and down 10 dB. 

So I ask this, if you truly feel that adding 2 tweeters will cause a complete drop out in the bass below 100-150 Hz, OK, trust Rin's graph.  However, if you feel that it's highly improbably for two tweeters to cause that drop out...  Well...  Then something happened with the measurements or the ASG-2.  I personally have never seen tweeters added to any system (headphones, speaker, etc.) that caused the bass to entirely drop out like that.  Probabilistically speaking, I don't feel that the additional tweeters caused the drop (something else did that's unique to a few ASG-2).

Dude, you went above and beyond the call of duty responding to me. Just a great post. And best of all, I learned something to make more educated examples in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gintaras View Post

Guys, do not you feel this forum has gone to hell with all these charts many of which are meaningless in terms of ears experience. If techincal science could replace composers we would not have great music today. For me personally all these graphs are meaningless and my main judge are my ears and no one else. I could not care less if that Hz or that Khz, i even doubt we hear it that way. Besides this is hell boring.

I think you mean "hella boring." wink.gif



Dale, if you'd care to, would you comment on the impedance graph?

I only ask because I remember you posting earlier this thread (or someone relayed what you told them) that it was mostly linear.
Edited by vwinter - 8/1/13 at 11:14am
post #2264 of 6762
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnityIsPower View Post

I don't think anybody will agree with me dale, at least not to the same degree... I think.

 

I almost feel bad because I wholeheartedly recommended the ASG-2 to you. I, along with several others who love the GR07 have upgraded to the AS/G-2, and loved it. There's myself, vwinter, Flysweep, ericp10, among others.

 

I must say, there may be something wrong with your pair, or you were expecting something entirely different from what you got.

 

As for the bass, it's one of the best bass(es?) I've ever heard. So is the GR07's bass. And the mids of the ASG-2 are breathtaking to me when they get going. 

 

I still stand by every single sentence in my review and comparisons. There are several others who hear them like I do, as well as others who disagree.

 

I don't know about Dale's return policy - I've never had to use it - but I hope you can at least sell it to someone on the forum.

post #2265 of 6762
Dale, I would like a refund.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › [REVIEW] Aurisonics ASG-2 & 2.5 (with many comparisons)