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post #16 of 64

BUT that's the whole  point! -you still wont accept reality  John-not a "fellow"[arrogant] but a great man -was RIGHT! and you wont accept it in your wee World of closed off science.

                            John proved to the World he was right! ---But you wont answer that --Why???

                                Scared there might be some  ----   Subjectivity in it??  If all human beings listen that way how can you criticize it ???  its like not accepting you were born from a woman  

                                      who is a Human Being. The world doesn't  isn't run by science its run by organic human beings  and Lennie if you think people are "cults

                                          and science fiction its time you got out into the real World where people interact with each other and learn Harmony and humanity..

                                              Science isn't human no matter how you dress it up..

post #17 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

XNOR-differentiate  human beings from animals-You are reading it WRONG- I   am pointing out they are ALL THE SAME --ALL listen SUBJECTIVELY - What organic/biological being on this planet DOESN'T listen subjectively????

Maybe you should try to form a coherent sentence in your brain before starting to write and we'd probably get what you're trying to say.

What beings don't listen subjectively? Those that cannot listen?! I know, I read that wrong again, it was a rhetorical question. Do you think we're stupid or something?

 

Quote:
                            I post like  this intentionally TO ANNOY  PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO LOOK FOR THE TINIEST THING to complain about in human beings ----------.

Obviously, it is a tiny and unimportant thing for you to be able to write proper sentences, which arguably is one of the most important things on a web forum, but let's not demand too much.

Also, I'm not annoyed at all, just surprised by the willful inability.

 

Quote:

                                    I could not care LESS what you think about the way I post------live with it!!!

Nice attitude.

 

 

Quote:
                                         In your anger you see what you want to see ---cant you tell sarcasm when you read it???

Again, I'm not angry. Sarcasm isn't always obvious in a forum, especially if you don't know the person posting. And I assumed that people who make sarcastic points can form coherent sentences. Guess that was foolish.

 

Quote:

                                            Did you even bother to read the next line in my post that you hurried to get in a reply??

Usually I read the whole post first, then compose a reply that addresses each point.

 

Quote:
                                                   Audio equipment is designed by people[mostly] who REFUSE to accept the FACT that the amps they design are listened to by -HUMAN-Beings

That is patently absurd. How do you come up with something like that?

 

Quote:

                                                        AND-----human beings listen ----subjectively  !   Don't you get it???

                                                            No probably not!

                                                               You cant turn human beings into robots who dont feel .

                                                                     You are angry because you dont like the TONE of my post-----still not get it ?

No I really don't get you. What are you trying to imply here?

 

You still haven't answered what you meant with "ADE" and what truth they admitted.


Edited by xnor - 5/3/13 at 11:33am
post #18 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

BUT that's the whole  point! -you still wont accept reality  John-not a "fellow"[arrogant] but a great man -was RIGHT! and you wont accept it in your wee World of closed off science.

                            John proved to the World he was right! ---But you wont answer that --Why???

                                Scared there might be some  ----   Subjectivity in it??  If all human beings listen that way how can you criticize it ???  its like not accepting you were born from a woman  

                                      who is a Human Being. The world doesn't  isn't run by science its run by organic human beings  and Lennie if you think people are "cults

                                          and science fiction its time you got out into the real World where people interact with each other and learn Harmony and humanity..

                                              Science isn't human no matter how you dress it up..

confused.gif

 

What is the whole point now? I don't understand what I haven't accepted, or what you are even going on about. Nobody has said that subjective impressions can't be right sometimes. And I don't know how I'm expected to answer to somebody that I don't know because of something he did in 1980. But if you're still in contact with John can you tell him to be a little more clear in his question so I can get to that?

post #19 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

BUT that's the whole  point! -you still wont accept reality  John-not a "fellow"[arrogant] but a great man -was RIGHT! and you wont accept it in your wee World of closed off science.

                            John proved to the World he was right! ---But you wont answer that --Why???

                                Scared there might be some  ----   Subjectivity in it??  If all human beings listen that way how can you criticize it ???  its like not accepting you were born from a woman  

                                      who is a Human Being. The world doesn't  isn't run by science its run by organic human beings  and Lennie if you think people are "cults

                                          and science fiction its time you got out into the real World where people interact with each other and learn Harmony and humanity..

                                              Science isn't human no matter how you dress it up..

I think you don't even understand what science is. Observations are an essential part of science.

 

If you're anti-science, you're anti-knowledge and pro-ignorance.

 

 

Also, you don't seem to understand our criticism at all. You've closed your mind to the idea that we're against everything subjective which we clearly are not. Please come back when you have opened your mind, good day.


Edited by xnor - 5/3/13 at 11:43am
post #20 of 64

ADE=audio design engineer-which John was. They refuse to accept  the fact any audio equipment is listened to and JUDGED by subjective human beings - " any post= I don't like this or that amp because of a-b-c - I like this amp because of  a-b-c they are talking about the reproduced sound to their ears  and they listen and judge Subjectively  

                they don't say --Oh this amp has 0.01 distortion or this amp has 0.001 distortion they say it sounds GREAT/ Terrible.

                     I don't like the amp because it is to shrill -dull etc. If all 0.001 % DIS. are equal  then why buy more than ONE model???

                           Come on every Hi-Fi mag has people complaining of differences in amps with little distortion

                              What do they hear??? or are you saying humans aren't fit to judge the amps they listen to-that's arrogant and patronizing

                               

                               and the    "we know better philosophy " and  puts down many music loving people.

                                        Just because they are not "well up" on the technical side.

                                           Just because some know  more technical knowledge than some others doesn't mean you "talk down " to them.

                                                 WE should all be in this World to help people not hinder.

post #21 of 64

And this closes the circle and leads me back to #3. Basic honesty controls like double-blind tests to eliminate biases, so you hear what is there and only that.

Do you do such tests? If not, why not?

 

I think it's pretty clear that humans are not measuring machines, do not produce as repeatable results, do suffer from bias and fatigue, .... and so on and on.

 

We are not putting down music lovers at all. I am one and I'd argue most others here are as well.

 

Yeah, guess what has helped humanity the most in the last decades.

hidden (Click to show)

Science.


Edited by xnor - 5/3/13 at 12:43pm
post #22 of 64

Double blind tests using loudspeakers with a multitude of variables can hinge not on the fidelity of the amp but on the make/model/and mostly price of the speakers.

                           But the web-site is called HEAD-FI not loudspeaker -fi so therefore we judge on the reproduction of amps using up to electrostatic earphones.

                                  I don't know about you but I have NO problem telling the difference in amps whether it be the 727-11 modified by myself or any loudspeaker power amp[safety precautions  

                                      taken to limit output]   All my equipment is totally open and neutral and I can hear the smallest amount of distortion/unevenness of any sort.

                                           Many audio design engineers in the UK now use earphones --as well as loudspeakers to judge  their own designs.

                                                Science also made the atom/hydrogen bomb does that help humanity too as well as all the spying that goes on by governments ?

                                                   Science is a double edged sword with one hand it saves with the other it kills. Being charitable  and helping those that need help concern me more.

post #23 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

Double blind tests using loudspeakers with a multitude of variables can hinge not on the fidelity of the amp but on the make/model/and mostly price of the speakers.

                           But the web-site is called HEAD-FI not loudspeaker -fi so therefore we judge on the reproduction of amps using up to electrostatic earphones.

Agreed that DBT on speaker-based systems will reveal differences in speakers first, unless speakers are held constant of course. It is nearly impossible to do a DBT on headphones.  The transition time is way too long, and there are all sorts of non-blind cues you can't really get rid of.  I would be curious as to how many here actual do controlled DBT on headphone amps, because it actually takes a bit of switching hardware that most people don't have access to. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

                                  I don't know about you but I have NO problem telling the difference in amps whether it be the 727-11 modified by myself or any loudspeaker power amp[safety precautions  

                                      taken to limit output]   All my equipment is totally open and neutral and I can hear the smallest amount of distortion/unevenness of any sort.

It would be of interest to know if your statements remain true under DBT conditions, or if they are based on non-blind subjective observations only. Without defining "the smallest amount of distortion/unevenness", the statement is kind of meaningless.  Sorry, don't mean to be contrary here, but to be meaningful we have to establish what you consider a small amount.  For example, it's been shown in research than most people cannot reliably detect certain types of distortion below 3%, but other types can be detected well below .5%.  It has to be specific when a claim is made, or we have no reference.  The claim may be completely valid, we just don't know what it is.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

                                                   Science is a double edged sword with one hand it saves with the other it kills. Being charitable  and helping those that need help concern me more.

At risk of sounding like a member of the NRA, Science doesn't kill, people do. 

post #24 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

Double blind tests using loudspeakers with a multitude of variables can hinge not on the fidelity of the amp but on the make/model/and mostly price of the speakers.

                           But the web-site is called HEAD-FI not loudspeaker -fi so therefore we judge on the reproduction of amps using up to electrostatic earphones.

                                  I don't know about you but I have NO problem telling the difference in amps whether it be the 727-11 modified by myself or any loudspeaker power amp[safety precautions  

                                      taken to limit output]   All my equipment is totally open and neutral and I can hear the smallest amount of distortion/unevenness of any sort.

                                           Many audio design engineers in the UK now use earphones --as well as loudspeakers to judge  their own designs.

                                                Science also made the atom/hydrogen bomb does that help humanity too as well as all the spying that goes on by governments ?

                                                   Science is a double edged sword with one hand it saves with the other it kills. Being charitable  and helping those that need help concern me more.

I did not mention loudspeakers or power amps at all. Yes, this is head-fi. I was more thinking about D/A converters or headphone amps or interconnects.

 

Again, educate yourself on what science and the scientific method actually are before posting something like that. How you use knowledge gained by the scientific method is up to you.

Else, I could also say that nature is a double edged sword because it has "created" hand-sized stones that were used to stone people (like endorsed in some ancient books, but that is forbidden to be discussed here). It makes no sense.


Edited by xnor - 5/3/13 at 2:30pm
post #25 of 64

I really don't get how someone can think that negatively about science. Especially when they're on a computer.

post #26 of 64

It seems you will not accept that a human ear can hear minute amounts of noise/ distortion  its down to awareness  of what to look for in the reproduction of the human voice.

                 You hold to the theory of science that we all cant tell the difference to minute amounts  I said I could  but you don't believe me because maybe you cant.

                      I have great awareness not just in music but in the state of the World. And I don't like the way small amounts of dist. sounds just as well as the way the World is run. 

                           But audio can be corrected  the World not easily. If people kill easily its because they have guns why the need for guns?

                              Double blind tests testing an amp I said using electrostatic earphones -Your not going to change the earphones its the amp you are testing.

                                  You don't double-blind test to see if your design is of high fidelity after you finish building it you test the amp to judge how good your design is.

                                       Only after that would you double blind test.but you must have a constant to judge- see science- and that is the earphones.you aren't judging the earphones

                                           you are judging the amp and electrostatic headphones with a diaphragm of Say  1-2 microns are a mile more sensitive than speakers even electrostatic ones.

post #27 of 64

I cannot take this anymore, I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

post #28 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

It seems you will not accept that a human ear can hear minute amounts of noise/ distortion  its down to awareness  of what to look for in the reproduction of the human voice.

                 You hold to the theory of science that we all cant tell the difference to minute amounts  I said I could  but you don't believe me because maybe you cant.

                      I have great awareness not just in music but in the state of the World. And I don't like the way small amounts of dist. sounds just as well as the way the World is run. 

                           But audio can be corrected  the World not easily. If people kill easily its because they have guns why the need for guns?

                              Double blind tests testing an amp I said using electrostatic earphones -Your not going to change the earphones its the amp you are testing.

                                  You don't double-blind test to see if your design is of high fidelity after you finish building it you test the amp to judge how good your design is.

                                       Only after that would you double blind test.but you must have a constant to judge- see science- and that is the earphones.you aren't judging the earphones

                                           you are judging the amp and electrostatic headphones with a diaphragm of Say  1-2 microns are a mile more sensitive than speakers even electrostatic ones.

I don't see anyone saying that human ear can't detect minor distortion, its just that statements like "smallest amount of distortion" being too ambigious to be taken account of...

 

Maybe you can go through a distortion listening test and show your result here: http://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/lt/?page=instructions


Edited by kn19h7 - 5/3/13 at 2:50pm
post #29 of 64

If you had read my post with others commenting on the movable adverts that appear on Head-Fi   that drive me and others "up the wall"you would know I removed all active-X and all the other ones thats including silverlight so I dont see them on the Web any where .thats needed for this exercise. and no I wont be re-instating them. for your link.

post #30 of 64

Not exactly sure who you are responding to but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

It seems you will not accept that a human ear can hear minute amounts of noise/ distortion  its down to awareness  of what to look for in the reproduction of the human voice.

A rather presumptuous statement, you know nothing about me and what I believe.  Actually I know that a human hearing system can detect certain types of distortion at low levels and certain spectra of noise at various levels.  The difference here is, I've studied exactly what types and levels of distortion  and spectra of noise are actually detectable, and you seem to have grouped all distortion together as one big nasty mechanism.  I regularly use the human voice as an evaluation test signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

                 You hold to the theory of science that we all cant tell the difference to minute amounts  I said I could  but you don't believe me because maybe you cant.

Again, very presumptuous. Science doesn't say that we can't tell the difference in minute amounts of distortion or noise or frequency response.  Quite the opposite, it defines the degree to which those mechanisms are detectable. As to if I personally can or can't detect distortion, I would never presume to make this discussion about me.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

                      I have great awareness not just in music but in the state of the World. And I don't like the way small amounts of dist. sounds just as well as the way the World is run. 

                           But audio can be corrected  the World not easily.

All I'm asking is for a definition of what you consider small amounts of distortion.  Not disputing it at all in principle. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post
              Double blind tests testing an amp I said using electrostatic earphones -Your not going to change the earphones its the amp you are testing.

                                  You don't double-blind test to see if your design is of high fidelity after you finish building it you test the amp to judge how good your design is.

                                       Only after that would you double blind test.but you must have a constant to judge- see science- and that is the earphones.you aren't judging the earphones

                                           you are judging the amp and electrostatic headphones with a diaphragm of Say  1-2 microns are a mile more sensitive than speakers even electrostatic ones.

I suspect you may not understand what comprises a double-blind test, based on the statement above.  Rather than clutter up an already cluttered thread, I would encourage you to google it.  You can't DBT electrostatic, or any other kind of headphones.  Look up Double-Blind Testing and see why.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

 If people kill easily its because they have guns why the need for guns?

A rather strange comment for an audio forum, don't you think?  Did anyone mention guns here?  Aren't we off topic?

 

Great signal source for impulse measurements, though!

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