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Don't you think this forum should be called Qualia Head-Fi?  

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 

Hi

 

Going through the threads on this forum, I am increasingly inclied to believe and actually to be quite certain of that many discussions boil down to, if you ask me, futile disputes about individual, conscoious experiences of sound, or sound quality which is not scientfically comparable to other people's experiences. Qualia.

 

Any thoughts?


Edited by muxamed - 5/2/13 at 4:05am
post #2 of 64

There are a lot of topics and discussion on applied mathematics, physics, systems.  These are not really ambiguous at all and are well defined.

 

As for the subjective experience, it depends on what you want to know about.  If you want to know about the character of somebody's experience at a very low level, maybe you could cite qualia.  That doesn't mean that experimental psychology, audio testing, etc. are all hogwash.  You can draw conclusions based on the conditions of whatever tests have been run.  For example, you don't need to know the mechanisms of somebody's preference to ask and get legitimate results about what they are.  If you test somebody repeatedly with two different stimuli (one or the other) and their preferences are not at all consistent with which stimulus is applied, that has a certain significance.  If one is significantly preferred over another, then that means something else.

 

If you look at the research in psychoacoustics, you will see that plenty of descriptors of sound quality, experiences are actually very common between different people.  That doesn't mean that they all are, though, and that's your point.

post #3 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by muxamed View Post

Going through the threads on this forum, I am increasingly inclied to believe and actually to be quite certain of that many discussions boil down to, if you ask me,

Quote:
futile disputes about individual, conscoious experiences of sound,

Those individuals, that hear differences with everything, are not even honest to themselves. They do not "submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal". Additionally, some of them make claims based on their own flawed experiences, often in a very generalized form.

 

I just reject such claims until evidence shows up and ask others to do the same. Even if it's just 1 out of a 100 people that becomes a bit more skeptical ... better than not even trying.

 

Quote:
or sound quality which is not scientfically comparable to other people's experiences.

Sound quality can also be measured objectively. Such measurements can be compared (more easily).

 

Quote:
Qualia.

So, let's shut down all subjective audio forums because each persons experiences are uncommunicable. Where do I need to sign?


Edited by xnor - 5/2/13 at 11:45am
post #4 of 64

 Its a pity all human beings /animals/birds/ insects/fish  ---listen  Subjectively isn't it??- They should be trained to believe we are mechanical robots That would be much better. Or maybe its time some ADEs admitted the truth  They  design electronic devices that are judged by Human Beings ---and they don't like it! 

post #5 of 64

Perception of the universal laws can be different (to an extent), but that doesn't change their definition.

 

For example, two astronauts in a weightless environment would describe their experiences differently (apart from the obvious weightlessness), but that doesn't mean the physics works differenty for either of them.

 

Understanding the causal relationship among things and interpreting them are two different things. The granularity of interpretation varies, some things are so obvious that everyone agrees, in other cases maybe not.


Edited by proton007 - 5/3/13 at 7:17am
post #6 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

 Its a pity all human beings /animals/birds/ insects/fish  ---listen  Subjectively isn't it??-

Why is that a pity? Why do you differentiate humans, birds, insects, fish ... from animals?

What's up with the dashes, spaces and weird use of punctuation?

 

Quote:
They should be trained to believe we are mechanical robots That would be much better.

Why? Believing something that is not true does not make it true. Why would it be much better?

The thought alone is disgusting.

 

Quote:
Or maybe its time some ADEs admitted the truth  They  design electronic devices that are judged by Human Beings ---and they don't like it!

ADEs? What truth? What are you talking about?

post #7 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Those individuals, that hear differences with everything, are not even honest to themselves. They do not "submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal". Additionally, some of them make claims based on their own flawed experiences, often in a very generalized form.

 

I just reject such claims until evidence shows up and ask others to do the same. Even if it's just 1 out of a 100 people that becomes a bit more skeptical ... better than not even trying.

 

Sound quality can also be measured objectively. Such measurements can be compared (more easily).

While a agree, I also know that what we enjoy is the total experience which includes the total technical performance of the system PLUS the influence of expectation, bias, and suggestion.  I simply cannot invalidate those effects on the total experience, even if they are only imagined effects.  I personally try to remove influence to make objective judgements, but I can't completely fault those that don't.  Some of the most fun I've ever had listening was under heavy expectation bias (I had a couple of vintage tube amps), and when I removed the bias, the fun magically went away and never came back.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor View Post

So, let's shut down all subjective audio forums because each persons experiences are uncommunicable. Where do I need to sign?

How about we just don't go there?  Let them have their fun, we can just avoid that area of space and enjoy our objectivity.  Frankly, though, I draw the line in two areas.  First, when bias causes someone to do something that significantly harms others, or harms themselves (even financially), and second, I'm less interested in squelching subjective claims, and more interested in understanding the successful results people experience because of those claims.  To me, understanding how this all works is the key to understanding how to spot and avoid falsehoods. 

 

One note for all here...I'd really hate to see another good thread get locked, so we need to keep this discussion civil and not attack anyone directly or indirectly, and keep the general distain for peoples beliefs under control. No, I don't know exactly what that means, but at least one of the admins here doesn't like us bashing audiophiles.  I'd just rather comply and keep the discussions going than have threads locked.

post #8 of 64

XNOR-differentiate  human beings from animals-You are reading it WRONG- I   am pointing out they are ALL THE SAME --ALL listen SUBJECTIVELY - What organic/biological being on this planet DOESN'T listen subjectively????

                            I post like  this intentionally TO ANNOY  PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO LOOK FOR THE TINIEST THING to complain about in human beings ----------.

                                    I could not care LESS what you think about the way I post------live with it!!!

                                         In your anger you see what you want to see ---cant you tell sarcasm when you read it???

                                            Did you even bother to read the next line in my post that you hurried to get in a reply??

                                                   Audio equipment is designed by people[mostly] who REFUSE to accept the FACT that the amps they design are listened to by -HUMAN-Beings

                                                        AND-----human beings listen ----subjectively  !   Don't you get it???

                                                            No probably not!

                                                               You cant turn human beings into robots who dont feel .

                                                                     You are angry because you dont like the TONE of my post-----still not get it ? 


Edited by duncan1 - 5/3/13 at 10:13am
post #9 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

XNOR-differentiate  human beings from animals-You are reading it WRONG- I   am pointing out they are ALL THE SAME --ALL listen SUBJECTIVELY - What organic/biological being on this planet DOESN'T listen subjectively????

                            I post like  this intentionally TO ANNOY  PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO LOOK FOR THE TINIEST THING to complain about in human beings ----------.

                                    I could not care LESS what you think about the way I post------live with it!!!

                                         In your anger you see what you want to see ---cant you tell sarcasm when you read it???

                                            Did you even bother to read the next line in my post that you hurried to get in a reply??

                                                   Audio equipment is designed by people[mostly] who REFUSE to accept the FACT that the amps they design are listened to by -HUMAN-Beings

                                                        AND-----human beings listen ----subjectively  !   Don't you get it???

                                                            No probably not!

                                                               You cant turn human beings into robots who dont feel .

                                                                     You are angry because you dont like the TONE of my post-----still not get it ? 

Just to be clear here - are you trying to say that people who engineer audio equipment should do so using subjectivity, rather than trying to preserve the original signal?

post #10 of 64

MY mentor JLH had the same trouble with d.self who you must be a follower. John in 1980 -proved to himself at least that  different  capacitors sounded DIFFERENT. by LISTENING to the different choices.on his Hi-Fi---Subjectively 

                  He was castigated by many ALL round the World by many ADEs you name it UK/US/Europe/ Australia/ New Zealand/ etc .How could a man of his standing list a series of different capacitors in a bad to good line up. This went on for Years -TILL a well known ADE and capacitor specialist  decided to prove it one way or another . by designing and building cutting edge capacitor test equipment--see EW/WW-circa 2002 .

                          After months of work and INTENSE scientific tests  he proved that JOHN was --------RIGHT!!! in the same order   that John judged Subjectively!

                               Did Anybody round the World apologize ????-NO----Enormous EGOs!

                                 I take it you accept John was a great ADE?? 

                                     John proved the human EAR is the ultimate judge.

post #11 of 64
Thread Starter 

It is very important to make a distinction between a signal and the perception of a signal. A signal is the detectible "image" of the reality (light, sound waves etc.) presented to our senses. The psychology of perception learns us that our brain interprets a signal before presenting it to our conscience. The signals we sense are interpreted and then constructed in our brain to a meaningful whole. This constructing process in the perception chain is a very important part. It is something we learn during  the first months/years of our life and cannot be learnd in the adulthood.

post #12 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

MY mentor JLH had the same trouble with d.self who you must be a follower. John in 1980 -proved to himself at least that  different  capacitors sounded DIFFERENT. by LISTENING to the different choices.on his Hi-Fi---Subjectively 

                  He was castigated by many ALL round the World by many ADEs you name it UK/US/Europe/ Australia/ New Zealand/ etc .How could a man of his standing list a series of different capacitors in a bad to good line up. This went on for Years -TILL a well known ADE and capacitor specialist  decided to prove it one way or another . by designing and building cutting edge capacitor test equipment--see EW/WW-circa 2002 .

                          After months of work and INTENSE scientific tests  he proved that JOHN was --------RIGHT!!! in the same order   that John judged Subjectively!

                               Did Anybody round the World apologize ????-NO----Enormous EGOs!

                                 I take it you accept John was a great ADE?? 

                                     John proved the human EAR is the ultimate judge.

I really have absolutely no idea what you're referring to, but it seems like what that has shown is that one person may have had a good ear. And the only actual "proof" of this was objective testing.

 

If this John fellow were wrong in (and I assure you many many people have been shown wrong in blind tests featuring subjective listening) I don't think you'd be accepting it as evidence that subjectivity is bad.

post #13 of 64

it should be called "The Religious Cults & Science-fiction" forum... lol 

post #14 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

MY mentor JLH had the same trouble with d.self who you must be a follower. John in 1980 -proved to himself at least that  different  capacitors sounded DIFFERENT. by LISTENING to the different choices.on his Hi-Fi---Subjectively 

                  He was castigated by many ALL round the World by many ADEs you name it UK/US/Europe/ Australia/ New Zealand/ etc .How could a man of his standing list a series of different capacitors in a bad to good line up. This went on for Years -TILL a well known ADE and capacitor specialist  decided to prove it one way or another . by designing and building cutting edge capacitor test equipment--see EW/WW-circa 2002 .

                          After months of work and INTENSE scientific tests  he proved that JOHN was --------RIGHT!!! in the same order   that John judged Subjectively!

                               Did Anybody round the World apologize ????-NO----Enormous EGOs!

                                 I take it you accept John was a great ADE?? 

                                     John proved the human EAR is the ultimate judge.

Interesting that your friend proved it to himself in 1980.  

 

A two-part article titled "Picking Capacitors" by Walter G. Jung and Richard Marsh appeared in Audio Magazine, part 1 in February 1980, part 2 in March 1980.  The article discusses in a quite thorough and scientific way (hey, it's Walt!) the specifics of why capacitors sound different, cause measurable distortion and what types are best in audio applications.  

 

You don't think that may have influenced Johns observations a tad, do you?

 

Pretty sure no global apology would have been necessary, as by 1980 the cap issue was pretty common knowledge, and many of us were already designing with that information a year or so earlier.  And John could have been deaf and still measured clear differences between cap dielectrics that could be audible. Not to say he didn't hear what he heard, but once the information was already out that supported his observations it would be unlikely there would be any retractions by his opposers.   It wasn't a question of something subjective eluding objective measurements, but rather that objective measurements supported subjective observations.

post #15 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post

it should be called "The Religious Cults & Science-fiction" forum... lol 

Yeah, and I'm expecting thread lock any second now...

 

C'mon, guys.  Keep it civil!

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