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Schiit Bifrost Uber Analog Upgrade - Page 51

post #751 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrscotchguy View Post


I honestly cannot give you a scientific or even logical reason for what I heard, but I can tell you that different USB ports (connected to difference hub locations on the motherboard) had slightly different sound -- just like using in on my windows 8.1 netbook produced a different sound than my hand built (using best parts at the time) Win 7 PC. But I honestly think that is a processor issue rather than a Bifrost issue.

Not knockin the Bifrost, just it's user friendliness to set it and forget it and get the best sound out of it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're using USB, that's 100% digital.  Meaning port won't matter.  Like if 100 people download an mp3 from a website, and we all run a checksum on it, we'd get the same hash because we have the EXACT digital copy of the song.  Not one single bit would differ between our copies of the file.  Same way digital music transfer works.

 

Now if you had five of the same soundcards all in different PCI slots, and use analog output to your amp, then yes, that could sound different.  One card could be closer to your video card.  One card could be on a different power rail that's cleaner.  Analog signals are susceptible to noise.

 

It's like how digital TV works or it doesn't.  If it's working, you're getting the exact picture everyone else is.  (granted your TV will render the colors, brightness, hue, etc differently, but the source image is digitally identical to the version everyone else is receiving because it's digital)

 

Reminds me of the fools who spend $1500 on a 6' HDMI cable.  Unless you're running it across your house in the wall along-side your mains wiring, there's zero benefit to getting a crazy shielded cable.  It's a digital signal.  It gets there in-tact, or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, your run is too long or too noisy, in which case you'd actually benefit from a better cable.  But in most cases, it's moot.  Snake oil is a common theme in theseparts!  Makes me want to buy two top end TV's, put them side-by-side, use a $3 monoprice 3 foot HDMI cable on one TV, and a $1500 snake oil HDMI cable on the other, and see if anyone can ACTUALLY tell a difference.  Does digital ever get noise?  Yes.  In the form of lost packets during transmission.  What would it look like for a TV?  Have you seen how TV gets all blocky when a cloud goes over your house and you have satellite TV?  That.  That's what it looks like.  Same with your music.  It works or it doesn't.  I'm 99.9999% sure your sound difference based on usb port is in your head.

post #752 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 View Post

Also, somewhat off topic, yet still somewhat related, I swapped out my GE tubes for russian 6n1p's from schiit today.

Initial impressions: The GE tubes sounded, to me anyways, like the highs were a tad bright, and lacked in lower mids and bass.  (both punch and extension)  These new tubes immediately sound better in the bass department.  Better punch.  Slightly better extension.  Mids are wonderful.  Highs are more tame.  Not sure I'd go as far as to say they're rolled off... but I'm no expert at analyzing this crap.  Maybe if I had two lyrs side by side, it would be easier to differentiate.
Those 6N1P are the Valhalla stock tubes, right? I didn't know Schiit sells them separately from the rest of the Valhalla set. Or did you just get the whole Valhalla set and left the 6N6P unused?
post #753 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrscotchguy View Post

I'm the first person to have a differing opinion, but I just cannot stand how fast a conversation can escalate into a full on argument so quickly on this forum. (not saying this one has or will). I find the level of mutual respect has decentigrated, so I tend to lurk more than comment.

I think every DAC has its quirks. In my situation, I just found my Schiit a bit too finicky for my convenience... So I upgraded/downgrade (varies from each viewpoint) to my AQ Dragonfly. Mostly for pure convenience while I save up for my (hopefully) end-game DAC. It too has its quirks, though much of them so different but somewhat less interruptive ( <--- is that a word?!)

Let me know if I need to clarify any of my thoughts on the Bifrost post...

 

Ignore the antagonists.  Some people here just have an agenda that doesn't include enjoyment, collegiality, and music.  

 

I'm a skeptic about many things in the audiophile world, but there absolutely is a difference in sound between USB implementations.  Sometimes, it's not even subtle.  Coax and optical have been around for a long time, so designers and manufacturers have worked out many of the kinks.  On the other hand, many manufacturers (Schiit included), didn't take USB seriously until recently and are now playing catch up.

 

And, there's nothing "Universal" about the "Universal" in Universal Serial Bus.  That protocol has always been, and will continue to be, a big headache for designers, programmers, and manufacturers.  This is because it can do so many things, whereas coax and optical have one one job each--move sound signals.


Edited by hodgjy - 3/2/14 at 7:47am
post #754 of 1446

Some people respond using the wrong choice of words that can compromise their message. Others don't like the message and will then tell us not to look.

post #755 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post
 

 

Ignore the antagonists.  Some people here just have an agenda that doesn't include enjoyment, collegiality, and music.  

 

I'm a skeptic about many things in the audiophile world, but there absolutely is a difference in sound between USB implementations.  Sometimes, it's not even subtle.  Coax and optical have been around for a long time, so designers and manufacturers have worked out many of the kinks.  On the other hand, many manufacturers (Schiit included), didn't take USB seriously until recently and are now playing catch up.

 

And, there's nothing "Universal" about the "Universal" in Universal Serial Bus.  That protocol has always been, and will continue to be, a big headache for designers, programmers, and manufacturers.  This is because it can do so many things, whereas coax and optical have one one job each--move sound signals.

This is a discussion and I don't think anyone here is antagonizing mrscotchguy.  I have to side with bleudeciel16, my knowledge-set of USB is the same as his.  Now of course I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact, most likely is my lack of knowledge of the implementation itself but again I don't see anyone antagonizing each other.

 

Also here's a cheer for Shure SRH1540 brothers! :beerchug:

post #756 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrnie View Post

Also here's a cheer for Shure SRH1540 brothers! :beerchug:

 

:beerchug:

 

P.S.  You were not who I was referring to.  I rather enjoy reading your diverse opinions on our diverse topics.

post #757 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum View Post

Those 6N1P are the Valhalla stock tubes, right? I didn't know Schiit sells them separately from the rest of the Valhalla set. Or did you just get the whole Valhalla set and left the 6N6P unused?

Stock are the GE's. They're the same as the smaller tubes that come with the valhalla set, but back when I got my bifrost, I was able to get them as an extra set without the big tubes
post #758 of 1446

In regards to the "Bits are bits, so everything digital sounds exactly the same" argument from 1982, please read the following before continuing to push that argument:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

 

and then part two:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

 

(a relatively easy to understand discussion about how electrons affect the bits.)

post #759 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

In regards to the "Bits are bits, so everything digital sounds exactly the same" argument from 1982, please read the following before continuing to push that argument:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

 

and then part two:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

 

(a relatively easy to understand discussion about how electrons affect the bits.)

 

It would be great to see an explanation like the one above (explaining how differences in implementation can effect SQ over digital USB transmission) for the ever-recurring cable debate (I can HEAR the difference in my super duper silver litz cable vs  the stock one)

post #760 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

In regards to the "Bits are bits, so everything digital sounds exactly the same" argument from 1982, please read the following before continuing to push that argument:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

 

and then part two:

 

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

 

(a relatively easy to understand discussion about how electrons affect the bits.)

Firstly this is the year 2014, the old issues of noise, etc. have long since dealt with and are no longer at such high levels as once was. Any current product suffering from such problems would be the result of poor design, not the case with the Bifrost. The SNR of the Bifrost is so low that these articles lack relevance with the discussion revolving around the Bifrost. None of this has anything to do with how USB is going to affect the mentioned soundstage or tonal qualitites. Data errors means no audio or glitches. IMO, you might consider to stop using these articles as a point of reference.

post #761 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Firstly this is the year 2014, the old issues of noise, etc. have long since dealt with and are no longer at such high levels as once was. Any current product suffering from such problems would be the result of poor design, not the case with the Bifrost. The SNR of the Bifrost is so low that these articles lack relevance with the discussion revolving around the Bifrost. None of this has anything to do with how USB is going to affect the mentioned soundstage or tonal qualitites. Data errors means no audio or glitches. IMO, you might consider to stop using these articles as a point of reference.

 

this.

 

plus, those articles even state that if there's an issue, it's with the receiver.  in the current discussion, the receiver is the control.  the usb port is the variable.  renders the articles moot.

 

would be interesting to break out an FPGA and a higher end ADC and log the digital values into a CSV.  I'd probably use my scope to find the noise floor so that I could strategically choose a good trigger level for when to start logging.  run 10 samples of the same song, then find the standard deviation.  then try a different usb port and compare the difference.  I have a sneaking suspicion I won't find any difference.

post #762 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 View Post
 

 

this.

 

plus, those articles even state that if there's an issue, it's with the receiver.  in the current discussion, the receiver is the control.  the usb port is the variable.  renders the articles moot.

 

would be interesting to break out an FPGA and a higher end ADC and log the digital values into a CSV.  I'd probably use my scope to find the noise floor so that I could strategically choose a good trigger level for when to start logging.  run 10 samples of the same song, then find the standard deviation.  then try a different usb port and compare the difference.  I have a sneaking suspicion I won't find any difference.

I find it less than ammusing when people claim that their USB port affects the soundstage or timbre. Time to call up, "The Digital Myth Busters."

post #763 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 View Post
 

 

this.

 

plus, those articles even state that if there's an issue, it's with the receiver.  in the current discussion, the receiver is the control.  the usb port is the variable.  renders the articles moot.

 

would be interesting to break out an FPGA and a higher end ADC and log the digital values into a CSV.  I'd probably use my scope to find the noise floor so that I could strategically choose a good trigger level for when to start logging.  run 10 samples of the same song, then find the standard deviation.  then try a different usb port and compare the difference.  I have a sneaking suspicion I won't find any difference.

Even with noise the overall sound signature of the DAC should be the same per USB implementation but we should probably get back to topic haha.

post #764 of 1446

Can I ask your perspective on the Schiit Bitfrost Uber DAC vs Wyred 4 Sound DAC1, 2, and Eastern Electric Mini Plus?  The Schiit is of course much less expensive than those compared.  Are they in the same league?  Is there something in the Schiit line more comparable? My 2 channel system is WFS 250w per, Odyssey tube pre-amp,  some Flac files, streaming MOG mostly, no headphones so far. Thanks for any ideas.

post #765 of 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesound View Post
 

Can I ask your perspective on the Schiit Bitfrost Uber DAC vs Wyred 4 Sound DAC1, 2, and Eastern Electric Mini Plus?  The Schiit is of course much less expensive than those compared.  Are they in the same league?  Is there something in the Schiit line more comparable? My 2 channel system is WFS 250w per, Odyssey tube pre-amp,  some Flac files, streaming MOG mostly, no headphones so far. Thanks for any ideas.

The question is, since the Bifrost has a flat FR and distortion levels far below what we can perceive and we really can't tell any differences at the higher bit rates and resolutions, do you need anything better? Many DACs that cost far more do not even have specs that are as good. If given a true ABX blind test (to be discussed elsewhere) how many of the those that profess to hear all sorts of nuances would fail to do so under a proper test under proper conditions. IMO, none of them could do it. This is a funny hobby, with all sorts of personalities hearing all sorts of things, imagined and otherwise. YMMV.

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