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Schiit Bifrost Uber Analog Upgrade - Page 41

post #601 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by yblad View Post
 

Just got my fully kitted out bifrost. I'm very happy with it, even before any burn in (if such a thing exists).  Can't wait for my new little dot MKV to come to pair it with. But even with my c&c BH portable headphone amp it sounds brilliant. Using AKG K702's.

 

I don't know why people complain about the relays. If i have my headphones one I can't even hear the relays ticking over the line noise which they cause, and with my headphones off it's only a rather comforting little set of ticks.


How often does it click exactly?

post #602 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post
 


How often does it click exactly?

 

The ticking is whenever you change sample rate. So if you're running foobar2k or another media player once per album at the most, and only then if the two albums are at different sample rates. Not sure if it does it when you change sample depth only, I don't have any files with the same rate and different depth. Actually i may have the odd 16bit 48khz somewhere I could use to check against my 24bit 48khz, but i haven't tested it anyway.

 

If you don't have your sounds turned off in windows and your running them through the DAC it will click a lot though, and if your streaming youtube content you'll also get it more often. But if you're listening to a media player you should have it take exclusive control of the device so it won't effect you while playing music.

 

I should imagine the device deal very well with playing multiple sounds at different rates at once, but I have no idea why anyone would want to be doing that anyway,

post #603 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by yblad View Post
 

 

The ticking is whenever you change sample rate. So if you're running foobar2k or another media player once per album at the most, and only then if the two albums are at different sample rates. Not sure if it does it when you change sample depth only, I don't have any files with the same rate and different depth. Actually i may have the odd 16bit 48khz somewhere I could use to check against my 24bit 48khz, but i haven't tested it anyway.

 

If you don't have your sounds turned off in windows and your running them through the DAC it will click a lot though, and if your streaming youtube content you'll also get it more often. But if you're listening to a media player you should have it take exclusive control of the device so it won't effect you while playing music.

 

I should imagine the device deal very well with playing multiple sounds at different rates at once, but I have no idea why anyone would want to be doing that anyway,


Ah, gotcha. Everything I listen to is CD ripped FLACs at 44.1kHz and 16-bit, so I guess Id never hear it at all. Thanks for explaining that though.

post #604 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by yblad View Post
 

Just got my fully kitted out bifrost. I'm very happy with it, even before any burn in (if such a thing exists). 

Both users and Schiit themselves say that there is significant burn-in with this product.  Supposedly, it is due to Teflon capacitors.   Significant changes are reported through 200 hours of music use, and some report subtle changes through a couple months of ownership.

post #605 of 1139

Hmm interesting about the burn in, hopefully they are all positive changes :bigsmile_face:. In regards to the clicking, I'm probably one of the few who wanted to save money and doesn't use USB with the Bifrost. I have a TOSLINK hooked up to my Claro Halo and the only time (apart from the start-up) I hear clicking in the headphone and in the device is when I switch the sample rate and bit depth on the Claro Halo Xear 3d settings and/or Windows 7 device sound settings. I mostly listen through Spotify or Foobar at 44.1 KHz. On some occasions changing new songs on Foobar by hitting next or double clicking on a new song while one is playing will produce a very soft click in the headphone. It is far less audible than the Asgard 2's start-up click but it is still present. It isn't even remotely close to being annoying as some have described. The only annoyance would come if your library's sample rate's are all over the place. Even then, since I'm not using USB I have to rely on Windows/ Claro Halo to alter the digital output sample rate at my command.So  I never experience the loud clicks when changing music files with different rates, but I may experience aliasing if I don't switch the Windows settings. Hopefully that helps.

 

On that note,  I'm still not sure whether I should match Windows settings with Claro Halo settings. I read that aliasing can occur when the sample rate isn't high enough. The articles I read talked more about music creation rates than music playback rates. My reasoning  is, if I can currently only hear as high as 16 KHz why should I worry about what the higher frequencies sound like?

post #606 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasuvicci View Post
 

Hmm interesting about the burn in, hopefully they are all positive changes :bigsmile_face:.

Since Schiit is aware of the change over time with Teflon capacitors, all they have to do is assemble their prototypes with burned-in capacitors.   Then with use, customers' products will match the prototypes.

 

Quote:
My reasoning  is, if I can currently only hear as high as 16 KHz why should I worry about what the higher frequencies sound like?

According to two different professional mastering engineers, sample rates affect bass frequencies as well as high frequencies.

post #607 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Since Schiit is aware of the change over time with Teflon capacitors, all they have to do is assemble their prototypes with burned-in capacitors.   Then with use, customers' products will match the prototypes.

 

According to two different professional mastering engineers, sample rates affect bass frequencies as well as high frequencies.

And how do sample rates affect bass in any audible fashion?

post #608 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

According to two different professional mastering engineers, sample rates affect bass frequencies as well as high frequencies.

And how do sample rates affect bass in any audible fashion?

Paul Stubblebine (professional mastering engineer) wrote:

 

"...But here's something that the theory doesn't account for: every time we double the sample rate (up to 4X) the bass gets better. Much better. More dimensionality, more texture, more clarity, better decay, lots of things. I'm just trying to make the point that digital audio is more complicated, and more subtle, than the first-level theory that we all learned..."

 

Barry Diament (professional mastering engineer) replied:

" Amen!
This is a great point. I've always responded to comments on 4x bandwidth being "higher than humans can hear" by pointing out the relationship between bandwidth and its effect on speed within the audible range. But you raise another important point: the bass does get a whole lot more real sounding at 4x rates (properly done) and this seems to elude the common theory."

 

( 4x means 4 times 44.1 (176.4khz) and 4 times 48 (192khz) )

post #609 of 1139
I use the bifrost urber too lyr out of my iPad using camera kit to USB
It is a very good chain no noise sounds great
post #610 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Paul Stubblebine (professional mastering engineer) wrote:

 

"...But here's something that the theory doesn't account for: every time we double the sample rate (up to 4X) the bass gets better. Much better. More dimensionality, more texture, more clarity, better decay, lots of things. I'm just trying to make the point that digital audio is more complicated, and more subtle, than the first-level theory that we all learned..."

 

Barry Diament (professional mastering engineer) replied:

" Amen!
This is a great point. I've always responded to comments on 4x bandwidth being "higher than humans can hear" by pointing out the relationship between bandwidth and its effect on speed within the audible range. But you raise another important point: the bass does get a whole lot more real sounding at 4x rates (properly done) and this seems to elude the common theory."

 

( 4x means 4 times 44.1 (176.4khz) and 4 times 48 (192khz) )

Man, that's worse than hearsay, that's just loose anecdotal that some guys unloaded on the public. Lets say you pick a bass frequency of  200 Hz, that's pretty high for bass. The 20th harmonic would be at 4 kHz. I can multiply that by 10 and that'll be  40 kHz. Nyquist-Shannon means double the sample rate of what you want to sample, I can double the 4 Khz 3 times and still be below 44.1 kHz. So do you think that you can hear the 20th harmonic, I don't think so. I picked a very high frequency for the fundamental tone of a bass note and then picked a ridiculously high harmonic and still came in under 44.2 kHz. My example is beyond extreme and it still works out.

I can probably find another expert to say some other weird stuff as well. Not to mention that I'm an EE and know a thing or two. When it comes to audio there are so many stories going around to spin the heads of audiophiles in circles. Keep in mind, when people say stuff off the top of their heads that contradicts the same science that brings us audio products, we should be careful in what we accept as real.


Edited by StanD - 2/11/14 at 5:56pm
post #611 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna47 View Post

I use the bifrost urber too lyr out of my iPad using camera kit to USB
It is a very good chain no noise sounds great

Man, I hope that I can get something working form my Android device. I know the PC/Laptop route will work but sometimes I want to plug in something small and handy.

post #612 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Paul Stubblebine (professional mastering engineer) wrote:

 

"...But here's something that the theory doesn't account for: every time we double the sample rate (up to 4X) the bass gets better. Much better. More dimensionality, more texture, more clarity, better decay, lots of things. I'm just trying to make the point that digital audio is more complicated, and more subtle, than the first-level theory that we all learned..."

 

Barry Diament (professional mastering engineer) replied:

" Amen!
This is a great point. I've always responded to comments on 4x bandwidth being "higher than humans can hear" by pointing out the relationship between bandwidth and its effect on speed within the audible range. But you raise another important point: the bass does get a whole lot more real sounding at 4x rates (properly done) and this seems to elude the common theory."

 

( 4x means 4 times 44.1 (176.4khz) and 4 times 48 (192khz) )

Man, that's worse than hearsay, that's just loose anecdotal that some guys unloaded on the public. Lets say you pick a bass frequency of  200 Hz, that's pretty high for bass. The 20th harmonic would be at 4 kHz. I can multiply that by 10 and that'll be  40 kHz. Nyquist-Shannon means....

No, they are not referring to harmonics.  Digital audio that uses 192 khz sampling rate - according to guys who use these all day long every day - improves the 200 hz response.  No harmonics involved.

 

Again, note " its effect on speed within the audible range " and "this seems to elude the common theory."

 

BTW, not "some guys" - Barry Diament mastered CD catalogs of Led Zeppelin, Bob Marley, and Yes among others...


Edited by kstuart - 2/11/14 at 6:31pm
post #613 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

No, they are not referring to harmonics.  Digital audio that uses 192 khz sampling rate - according to guys who use these all day long every day - improves the 200 hz response.  No harmonics involved.

 

Again, note " its effect on speed within the audible range " and "this seems to elude the common theory."

IMO. that's silly. Just two guys jawing off. This kind of stuff just promotes gear that human beings will not benefit from. Though good for lab measurements.

Other than words, exactly what does "Speed within the audible range mean to bass and does that make any real sense?"

There's no basis for such a statement. This is not string theory or spaced out science, it's simple stuff.


Edited by StanD - 2/11/14 at 6:22pm
post #614 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Man, that's worse than hearsay, that's just loose anecdotal that some guys unloaded on the public. Lets say you pick a bass frequency of  200 Hz, that's pretty high for bass. The 20th harmonic would be at 4 kHz. I can multiply that by 10 and that'll be  40 kHz. Nyquist-Shannon means double the sample rate of what you want to sample, I can double the 4 Khz 3 times and still be below 44.1 kHz. So do you think that you can hear the 20th harmonic, I don't think so. I picked a very high frequency for the fundamental tone of a bass note and then picked a ridiculously high harmonic and still came in under 44.2 kHz. My example is beyond extreme and it still works out.

I can probably find another expert to say some other weird stuff as well. Not to mention that I'm an EE and know a thing or two. When it comes to audio there are so many stories going around to spin the heads of audiophiles in circles. Keep in mind, when people say stuff off the top of their heads that contradicts the same science that brings us audio products, we should be careful in what we accept as real.

 

Not to cause a huge arguement but the nyquist-shannon theory is for the absolute minimum representation of a frequency, not an accurate one. Sampling at exactly double the highest frequency turns a sine wave at that frequency into a triangular saw tooth wave of the same frequency. You need a much higher sample rate to get a realistic reproduction of the origional sound wave.

 

Just think about it, if you have a 1khz signal and you take a sample at 2khz you take one sample at the top extreme and one at the bottom. When you reconstruct it that makes for a striaght line from top extreme to bottom extreme, and back again. And that's assuming that the sample is matched perfectly with the tone, if it isn't you get worse effects coming into play, that's actually the best case possible for Nyguist-Shannon. It's actually possible to completely mute the tone if the sample is aligned at 180degrees to the best case. And anything between 180 and 0 degress phase difference will give you attenuation of the amplitude. It's a lot more complicated than you might think. 

 

Even at 4 times the tone frequency you get a very messed up wave coming out of it. Yes DACs are designed to accomodate for this as much as possible, but they do it by making educated guesses. In reality we aren't dealing with pure sine wave tones which stay locked in at a nice constant frequency where we can just round things out and hope everything will be ok.

 

 

I'm not saying they are right, just saying I wouln't discard the opinion of two experts on the basis of basic and largly approximated thoery.

 

Anyway, this isn't a discusson for this thread. There's an entire sound science section of forum for that. While not an EE I am a mathematical physicist, so I also know a thing or two about sound waves ;)


Edited by yblad - 2/11/14 at 6:52pm
post #615 of 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Both users and Schiit themselves say that there is significant burn-in with this product.  Supposedly, it is due to Teflon capacitors.   Significant changes are reported through 200 hours of music use, and some report subtle changes through a couple months of ownership.


In that case I'll be even happier after 200 hours :) I wasn't dumping on the idea of burn in, I was just appeasing people so a burn in vs no burn in flame war doesn't start up.

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