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The Fiio X5 Thread - Page 633

post #9481 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordicai View Post
 

You bought an amp that does not have a balance control and now blame the manufacture for your poor decision. You did not research the product before you bought it and what to blame everyone but yourself. You got to be kidding!

You are wrong in more than one way. I was advised several times to buy an E12 to solve the lack of amp power on the X5, and nowhere on the Fiio website says that you lose such an important adjustment as the balance control when you add the E12 to the X5, a combination that Fiio DO recommend to buy. Let me repeat it for you: Fiio recommends to buy the X5+E12 combo. Who's to blame if that results in missing functionalities? The customer who can not know that in advance because the company that sells the product do not care to inform it?
 

Any company should warn what functionality will be lost or what important changes will occur when something they sell is added to another product of their brand, specially when they are sold together as a bundle. This is called common sense, or best practices, if you prefer.

And no, I'm not kidding, I am reasoning.

post #9482 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by x RELIC x View Post

Easy solution. Volume at max, low gain, headphone out to e12. Same sound + balance control = happy customer.

Am I wrong?

That kinda work, but I can notice a loss of SQ when double-amping good HP such as the Senns HD800.

post #9483 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post


I dont think its fair for you to put it this way. Sure the producs may not be perfect, but saying that fiio isn't paying enough attention to customers just isnt right. Right from the design stage head fiers were heavily involved. Even now with the x7 they have created a thread to seek our opinions. Please do bear in mind that simply because it does not suit your needs does not mean that they did not do a good job. Yes I acknowledge that it does not suit your needs, and you have every right to wish it did, but to say such things about the company isn't quite right when they clearly did not neglect their customers' opinions and feedback. And you do seem rather spiteful with how you talk about fiio having to lose profits with the resale of your e12 set.

At the respective price points of both products, i believe they perform exceptionally. And yes there is no balance control on the line out, but they can't possibly fulfil every single request and I think you should realise that simply because it does not fulfil your needs does not make it as poor a product as you make it out to be.

Perhaps you do not mean things in this way, if that is so i sincerely apologise, but the tone which you have taken is a very strong and offensive one against fiio which i really feel they do not deserve just because it doesn't fulfil your needs.

You know what? I didn't like to return the E12, because I know that is what damages a company when too many people do the same for X unsolved reason or complaint. A lot of people is about to return their X5 for many reasons, you can read some of them on this very forum.
Retailers don't give a damn. If they receive too many returns they either stop selling the product/brand, or work a huge discount or other form of compensation. Either way, Fiio loses, while the costumer and the retailer don't.

All I say is that in this extremely competitive, globalized world, a small mistake can make it or break it. The E12 without balance control is a mistake, a mistake Fiio did not make neither with the X5 or the E17. Why? I don't know, but they made a mistake.

Some companies can not afford to lose even the 5% customer base, for that may very well be their total profits. And a lot more that the 5% of the population have hearing imbalances. Do the math.

I want more Fiios in this world. But they have to be more right on their decisions in order to survive the Sonys and the Apples.

I love the X5, and I think the E12 is a great product, but flawed, unnecessary flawed.

post #9484 of 19490

Once you make the line-out adjustable, then technically it isn't a line-out anymore and there will be those who are going to complain about it (*which does happen in the past on HF before, on older Sansa line of DAP). There is no way to make everyone happy, as much as one try. You just have to pick something you can live with, or without.


Edited by ClieOS - 5/19/14 at 9:02pm
post #9485 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixter View Post
 

Thought this was an X5 area...  shouldn't you complain about the E12 in the E12 forum...    

BTW there are easy ways to get the balance out of the X5 into the E12 if you wanted to try that solution out... 

Well, the X5 even sells as a bundle with the E12, and there's a lot of comments on that on this thread. For all purposes, by now this thread is both about the X5 and the E12 or different additional amplifiers and accessories. More than half of all comments in the last weeks are not about the X5 itself, but related stuff.

Please, let me know about those easy ways to get balance control with the X5 plugged into the E12, as I couldn't find any practical, non SQ-damaging one yet.

post #9486 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

Once you make the line-out adjustable, then technically it isn't a line-out anymore and there will be those who are going to complain about it (*which does happen in the past on HF before, on older Sansa line of DAP). There is no way to make everyone happy, as much as one try. You just have to pick something you can live with, or without.

You are right. But then, the logical next step for Fiio should have been to provide a balance control on the E12, in order for it not to disable that function from the X5. What's the logic in one part of an audio bundle disabling a very important functionality on the other part?

Or, if a balance control on the E12 was in any way considered and determined not to be worthwhile, then Fiio should inform very clearly that customers who wish to continue enjoying that option on their X5 must not buy the E12. Fiio didn't say a word about it. That's the whole point of my rant. I lost time and money buying and returning the E12, and Fiio probably lost all profits from that item, perhaps even more.

 

The X5+E12 is not a Sansa nor it costs anything near one. In fact, it costs more than most people on earth would pay for a portable audio device.


Edited by Muenchener - 5/19/14 at 9:23pm
post #9487 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayziehustler View Post
 

I think the reason some guys are saying the iPod sounds better is because they got used to the colored sound of the iPhone/iPod. The X5 is pretty neutral in that regard with little to no coloration. It is an entirely different sound than an iPod.

 

I came from Cowon J3 and I felt the J3 had a better sound when I first got my X5. I haven't touched the J3 in over a month and just recently listened to it and man what was I thinking. The X5 is leagues ahead of it though it took time to get used to bare natural sound of the music and not the colored J3 sound. Stay away from the iPod/iPhone for a while and then see if you still feel the same.


That's really good advice, IMO, staying away from the IPod/iPhone for a while. It's like if you stay away from junk food for a while, natural food begins to taste better.

post #9488 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post


I dont think its fair for you to put it this way. Sure the producs may not be perfect, but saying that fiio isn't paying enough attention to customers just isnt right. Right from the design stage head fiers were heavily involved. Even now with the x7 they have created a thread to seek our opinions. Please do bear in mind that simply because it does not suit your needs does not mean that they did not do a good job. Yes I acknowledge that it does not suit your needs, and you have every right to wish it did, but to say such things about the company isn't quite right when they clearly did not neglect their customers' opinions and feedback. And you do seem rather spiteful with how you talk about fiio having to lose profits with the resale of your e12 set.

At the respective price points of both products, i believe they perform exceptionally. And yes there is no balance control on the line out, but they can't possibly fulfil every single request and I think you should realise that simply because it does not fulfil your needs does not make it as poor a product as you make it out to be.

Perhaps you do not mean things in this way, if that is so i sincerely apologise, but the tone which you have taken is a very strong and offensive one against fiio which i really feel they do not deserve just because it doesn't fulfil your needs.


ditto!

post #9489 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripvanlink View Post
 


That's really good advice, IMO, staying away from the IPod/iPhone for a while. It's like if you stay away from junk food for a while, natural food begins to taste better.

 

Actually the iPhone 4 and recent iPod Touches pretty much measure flat - and are some of the least coloured DAPs around.  I still love my iPhone4 as a source - despite having some "audiophile" gear.  Unfortunately most who complain about the differences, and put the i-devices down never take the time to properly volume level match when making comparisons.

 

So why buy devices like the Studio V3 Anniversary or X5 (I'll get my purchased version soon) - simple really - they have:

 - more memory options than my 32 Gb iPhone (so I can take more music with me)

 - they can drive more difficult loads without need for an additional amp (for me that means DT880 and HD600)

 

IMO (and in my own testing) my iP4 is actually slightly more neutral than either the V3 or X5.  The V3 is slightly brighter than neutral.  To me the X5 is very slightly more warm than neutral. All 3 are brilliant sources though - and each have their uses.

post #9490 of 19490
@Muenchener I was just thinking and I'm not sure if this will or will not happen but.......

I know the EQ on the X5 works with the line out (up to 48kHz, 16 and 24 bit), and it also works with the digital coaxial out, so perhaps balance control was just an oversight on Fiio's part. Given that the EQ is just a db adjustment with +/- 12db of control at different freq then it should work with channel balancing which isn't that taxing on the processor. They might be able to implement this at all sample rates fairly easily. I can't speak for Fiio but I don't think this has hit a brick wall yet.

How long did you give Fiio to respond? Did you post a bug on the bugzilla sight? I understand that time and money was spent, but there may still be options although it seems not in the immediate future.
Edited by x RELIC x - 5/19/14 at 10:21pm
post #9491 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muenchener View Post

You know what? I didn't like to return the E12, because I know that is what damages a company when too many people do the same for X unsolved reason or complaint. A lot of people is about to return their X5 for many reasons, you can read some of them on this very forum.

Retailers don't give a damn. If they receive too many returns they either stop selling the product/brand, or work a huge discount or other form of compensation. Either way, Fiio loses, while the costumer and the retailer don't.


All I say is that in this extremely competitive, globalized world, a small mistake can make it or break it. The E12 without balance control is a mistake, a mistake Fiio did not make neither with the X5 or the E17. Why? I don't know, but they made a mistake.


Some companies can not afford to lose even the 5% customer base, for that may very well be their total profits. And a lot more that the 5% of the population have hearing imbalances. Do the math.


I want more Fiios in this world. But they have to be more right on their decisions in order to survive the Sonys and the Apples.


I love the X5, and I think the E12 is a great product, but flawed, unnecessary flawed.

I think you misunderstand me. It is perfectly fine that you are unhappy with this combo. I agree completely that it does not suit your needs. And perhaps you do not mean any harm saying what you did but your tone wasn't too nice. And from the responses of others it seems they find your tone offensive too.

Regarding your view that fiio markets them as a combo, and does not explain what the functions the customers would miss out, if we insist on going into technicalities here, I would just like to add that fiio has never marketed this combination as a combination for driving difficult headphones with balance control. More importantly though, i do not believe it is necessary for s company to point out every single flaw or missing function in the products that they sell. Which company does that? I am very sure that should you have asked, they would have told you honestly that the channel balance would not work in this setup. When a company sells a product, they tell you what it can do, not what it can't, and unless i missed it somewhere, they never said that the balance control worked with the line out. So they are not at fault there and they do not need to specifically state it unless you ask. No other company would. Apple would state on their iphone sales page that flash doesn't work with the safari browser does it?

And regarding the changing of the e12 to include a balance control, while it may seem like a good idea (not saying it isn't) perhaps from Fiio's market survey, they have figured that not too many customers want it? And that adding this function would raise the price of the e12 such that most customers would be negatively affected? This is all speculation I know, but unless you know the backstory, which i don't it is not fair to put them down like this. After all, just take a look around and you'll see that the majority of the amps do not have a balance control, at least in the realm of portable amps. Desktop amps and high end hifi amps, well i have not much experience so i will not comment.

So yes. Perhaps you are right in that a lot of people have hearing imbalances, at least slight ones. But I also know that a lot of people have imbalances in the lengths of their legs, different feet sizes, different body proportions. But do most shoe companies make shoes with customisable sole thicknesses, or allow you to buy different sizes? No. Do most clothing companies sell tailor made clothing? No. But we do not complain about them because we understand that decisions are made based on their market survey on what most, i repeat, most of their customers want, and that they can never please everyone.

Similarly, if you want something customisable in audio, I am sure there are options, but just like with clothing and shoes, you might have to pay a premium and not all brands do it. If the x5 e12 combo does not suit your needs, you simply have to find something else that does. Apple tells you that the iphone is fantastic. But more people use android because of what it lacks. Same thing here fiio doesn't have to market their products' inabilities. After all, its marketing.

Sorry for this long post going OT. I will not reply anymore on the thread pertaining this because it only disrupts the useful conversation here. My apologies.
post #9492 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by x RELIC x View Post

@Muenchener I was just thinking and I'm not sure if this will or will not happen but.......

I know the EQ on the X5 works with the line out (up to 48kHz, 16 and 24 bit), and it also works with the digital coaxial out, so perhaps balance control was just an oversight on Fiio's part. Given that the EQ is just a db adjustment with +/- 12db of control at different freq then it should work with channel balancing which isn't that taxing on the processor. They might be able to implement this at all sample rates fairly easily. I can't speak for Fiio but I don't think this has hit a brick wall yet.

How long did you give Fiio to respond? Did you post a bug on the bugzilla sight? I understand that time and money was spent, but there may still be options although it seems not in the immediate future.

Not completely sure but it does seem like the balance control is implemented in the amp stage within the x5. If it is then it would not be possible to change, however it is completely possible that it is a digital function before the DAC stage. However at this stage it does not seem likely to me smily_headphones1.gif
post #9493 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post

Not completely sure but it does seem like the balance control is implemented in the amp stage within the x5. If it is then it would not be possible to change, however it is completely possible that it is a digital function before the DAC stage. However at this stage it does not seem likely to me smily_headphones1.gif

I'm thinking out loud and just proposing that they might add the function in the digital stage. Similar to how the X3 has hardware based bass/treble control, but they are still adding digital EQ to the mix.

Never know if you don't ask. Not really an issue for me, but it may help others.
post #9494 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by x RELIC x View Post

I'm thinking out loud and just proposing that they might add the function in the digital stage. Similar to how the X3 has hardware based bass/treble control, but they are still adding digital EQ to the mix.

Never know if you don't ask. Not really an issue for me, but it may help others.

Hopefully they can make it a possibility for those who need it smily_headphones1.gif
post #9495 of 19490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muenchener View Post
 

You are right. But then, the logical next step for Fiio should have been to provide a balance control on the E12, in order for it not to disable that function from the X5. What's the logic in one part of an audio bundle disabling a very important functionality on the other part?

Or, if a balance control on the E12 was in any way considered and determined not to be worthwhile, then Fiio should inform very clearly that customers who wish to continue enjoying that option on their X5 must not buy the E12. Fiio didn't say a word about it. That's the whole point of my rant. I lost time and money buying and returning the E12, and Fiio probably lost all profits from that item, perhaps even more.

 

The X5+E12 is not a Sansa nor it costs anything near one. In fact, it costs more than most people on earth would pay for a portable audio device.

 

E12 comes well before X5 (and X3, for the matter), so you shouldn't expect it have a balance control, by your logic. Plus, balance control using full analog circuit isn't nearly as easy you as think it is. The reason why it can be implemented on E17, E07K, X3 and X5 is because of the use of hardware volume control chip (in E17, E07K and X3) or digital volume control (via X5 SoC). On the other hand, E12, which is designed to be as high a performance as it can be as an analog amp in order to appeal to the purist (*implying those who put performance over feature), doesn't have the balance control is, at least to my eyes, not illogical. Just look around, how many TOTL portable amps do you know have a balance control? FiiO even strongly consider to leave out the crossfeed feature on the next E12 reversion as they have learned from the E12DIY project that it can improve the performance. So, what is 'very important functionality' is really a matter of opinion, and no one is wrong on that matter. You might think it is important because you need it, but FiiO might think it is barely used feature from the feedback of most other user.

 

I do agree FiiO should label it clearly about the difference between headphone-out vs. LO, and you are not wrong to rant about it. I have ranted about the EQ on iPod causing distortion too, but I don't think Apple has intentionally came out its way to deceive me about their useless EQ. I have ranted about iriver ridiculous pricing on their AK series as well, but I am not going to keep posting hate post about iriver (consider I used to be a big iriver fan a decade ago). I have plenty of IEM that don't quite live up to their price tag as well, and I will tell people what I think about them. However, I think everyone in HF (or in life) has overpaid somethings or gotten something not up to expectation. But to keep holding grudges will be a terrible way to live. So I'll say you should by all mean rant about it, but remember to move on.


Edited by ClieOS - 5/20/14 at 4:54am
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