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The Fiio X5 Thread - Page 278

post #4156 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

 

@cooperpwc I'm gonna redo this test all over again with my MH335DW. Something doesn't gel still.

 

I look forward to this. I will also try to spend some more time on the line out to the Pico Power and Quickstep to get a better sense of what is attributable to the X5 DAC and what to the internal amp.

post #4157 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

 

Since the HO signal comes from LO, the cleanness of the HO signal is an indication of the cleanness of the LO signal.

 

What? Are you sure? A clean LO should take the analog signal directly from the dac and bypass the internal amp , if I am not mistaken in all my mods.

post #4158 of 19481

Where is the user manual for the X5? Anyone know? Thanks.

post #4159 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
 

Where is the user manual for the X5? Anyone know? Thanks.

Joe posted this:

~~Also, the X5 user guide is complete (if lacking a little polish :p)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cek9xf0wk2osky7/X5%20full%20user%20manual.DOC


Edited by bearFNF - 2/3/14 at 8:49pm
post #4160 of 19481
Quote:

Originally Posted by DMinor View Post
 

       Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

       Since the HO signal comes from LO, the cleanness of the HO signal is an indication of the

       cleanness of the LO signal.

 

What? Are you sure? A clean LO should take the analog signal directly from the dac and bypass the internal amp , if I am not mistaken in all my mods.

 

ClieOS is not contradicting that. He is saying that if the HO is clean then the LO must be clean since the LO feeds the HO. This is logical.

post #4161 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc View Post
 

 

ClieOS is not contradicting that. He is saying that if the HO is clean then the LO must be clean since the LO feeds the HO. This is logical.


why can't they do the same as the mods done by Vinnie to have a clean LO separated from HO? Can they stop sending signals/power to HO when only LO is used?

post #4162 of 19481

^ I think that you are being more technical than the comment was intended. If its a proper LO, then it is receiving the same DAC signal as the HO. Therefore the HO, which adds an amp section, cannot be cleaner than the LO (assuming that they do not otherwise add crap into the LO path and there is no indication that they do).

 

That is all that was and is being said.

 

I can state the the LO does sound very clean feeding an external amp.


Edited by cooperpwc - 2/3/14 at 9:08pm
post #4163 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post
 


Can they stop sending signals/power to HO when only LO is used?

 

FYI the headphone out does not work when the line out is engaged so there is some switching going on.

post #4164 of 19481

Thank you for the link though. 

post #4165 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post
 

 

What? Are you sure? A clean LO should take the analog signal directly from the dac and bypass the internal amp , if I am not mistaken in all my mods.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc View Post
 

 

ClieOS is not contradicting that. He is saying that if the HO is clean then the LO must be clean since the LO feeds the HO. This is logical.

 

Exactly. The LO signal comes after the DAC's I/V and LPF stage, before the amp stage. You can't get a cleaner analog signal than that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post
 


why can't they do the same as the mods done by Vinnie to have a clean LO separated from HO? Can they stop sending signals/power to HO when only LO is used?

 

It seems you have a misunderstanding on how and why Vinnie does those mod. He does nothing but to reroute the line signal from poorly implemented path (with resistors, caps and transistors 'polluting' the signal) to directly out. Those same path in X5 is already directly out to the LO without any of the SQ degrading passive components, so what is there to skip or fix? It is the old saying - If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

 

Even X3 stops sending signal to the amp section when LO is used. Same is true to X5. There is a switch inside the LO jack that will disable the amp section when the LO jack is plugged in, mainly to stop the amp section (which is assumed not being used) from wasting battery life.

post #4166 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc View Post
 

 

FYI the headphone out does not work when the line out is engaged so there is some switching going on.

 

That's nice to know and encouraging. I know the ipod 5g sends signals to both at the same time and I had to disable the HO during my LO mod.

 

Based on your guys' initial impressions, I will likely order a copy for comparison, unless the AK240 puts the X5 to shame.

post #4167 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post

 

It seems you have a misunderstanding on how and why Vinnie does those mod. He does nothing but to reroute the line signal from poorly implemented path (with resistors, caps and transistors 'polluting' the signal) to directly out. Those same path in X5 is already directly out to the LO without any of the SQ degrading passive components, so what is there to skip or fix? It is the old saying - If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

 

 

 

I think it depends on how the circuit is designed, but conceptually I like to have a clean LO totally separated from HO circuit from the dac. I would even prefer that LO has no DC coupling caps and let the end user find a solution (amp) to deal with that dc offsets from LO.

 

The point is to keep that LO signal clean and undisturbed with the least components added to the audio path. There are amps designed to compensate for the DC offsets without actually using DC coupling caps.


Edited by DMinor - 2/3/14 at 9:44pm
post #4168 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post
 

 

I think it depends on how the circuit is designed, but conceptually I like to have a clean LO totally separated from HO circuit from the dac. I would even prefer that LO has no DC coupling caps and let the end user find a solution (amp) to deal with that dc offsets from LO.

 

If you separate the LO from the HO, then what are you going to feed the HO from? Stereo DAC only output one single left and right channel, so regardless of how many output, they all have to come from the same place (this is also true to iMod as well). The only logical way to totally separate LO from HO is to have two DAC, one feeds to LO while the other to HO, which is totally impractical on a DAP (though I have seen this implementation on desktop DAC before). Another less problematic way is to have two buffered output after the DAC stage, then again, a lot of power and space will be wasted, but often this is how many DAP are able to offer LO and HO at the same time, though most of them implemented it in a much cheaper / less HiFi fashion that isn't really meant to provide better SQ but to support external accessories.

 

There is no need for caps in signal path if there isn't any DC. But if there is, not implementing caps will be very irresponsible for the manufacturer. You can easily ruin the user's gears that way and get sued. Not a good business practice, especially in the era when most don't read the manual. The better way is to use the most transparent caps available.


Edited by ClieOS - 2/3/14 at 10:01pm
post #4169 of 19481
Hi guys,

Based on the suggestion here
http://www.head-fi.org/t/703058/suggestion-to-improve-fiios-bug-management-and-feature-tracking-as-well-as-to-create-a-knowledge-base

I opened a BugZilla account for the X3 and X5
https://app.devzing.com/FiiO/bugzilla/

edit: note the URL above has been changed from FiiOX5 to FiiO!

This will only be open for a 14 day trial so I hope you guys make good use of it in these two weeks to make a convincing case for FiiO to keep using it for a fee!
Or if BugZilla turns out to be too hard to use we may try UserVoice instead.
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 2/4/14 at 7:30pm
post #4170 of 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

 

If you separate the LO from the HO, then what are you going to feed the HO from? Stereo DAC only output one single left and right channel, so regardless of how many output, they all have to come from the same place (this is also true to iMod as well). The only logical way to totally separate LO from HO is to have two DAC, one feeds to LO while the other to HO, which is totally impractical on a DAP (though I have seen this implementation on desktop DAC before). Another less problematic way is to have two buffered output after the DAC stage, then again, a lot of power and space will be wasted, but often this is how many DAP are able to offer LO and HO at the same time, though most of them implemented it in a much cheaper / less HiFi fashion that isn't really meant to provide better SQ but to support external accessories.

 

There is no need for caps in signal path if there isn't any DC. But if there is, not implementing caps will be very irresponsible for the manufacturer. You can easily ruin the user's gears that way and get sued. Not a good business practice, especially in the era when most don't read the manual. The better way is to use the most transparent caps available.

 

Now this is my experience from diymod. After I fly wires from the removed caps near dac directly to the lod pins (pins lifted off board to bypass the board) without using dc coupling caps, I was surprised by the sound improvement when the LO was hooked into a clean amp also without dc coupling caps in the signal path.

 

I do agree with you on manufacturer's concerns about the dc offsets potentially damaging amps and/or phones, because mine is 1500 mV's from LO.


Edited by DMinor - 2/3/14 at 11:47pm
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