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Fiio X5 Thread - info updated on Jan 17th 2014 - Page 327

post #4891 of 12550

Me too. YGPM!

post #4892 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cachicamo View Post

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post
 

 

PM'd

edit: PM'd Jobbing as well.

Hopes this helps us all to get these 128gb micro's without spending almost double the US price. :)


Edited by JonathanCandel - 3/3/14 at 2:03am
post #4893 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 


Well, personally, I'm not looking for a high-powered amp, so as long as it outputs a very high quality 1 Vrms output, I'm okay with it. I think it's great that the X5 can power what it can, but so few people actually take around full-sized cans and listen to them on the go. Head-fiers might need something to power a rig portably at a meet, but that's about it. For the majority of the population, a 3.3V swing offers plenty of power for IEMs and portable cans, given that the amplifier can deliver the current, which I think it probably can. Perhaps that's the myth that people like to perpetuate, but I don't necessarily believe that a portable DAP needs to be "high-power" for it to be respected amongst audiophiles. The AK100 didn't have that problem. The iPod doesn't have that problem.

 

Again, who knows what's gonna happen --- I'm not demanding that FiiO put in the ES9601. If FiiO can put in an amp stage that can swing 9V and still give me 12-16 hours of battery life under regular use, then more power to them, but I'd rather preserve battery life and small size, rather than go for power at the sacrifice of battery life and/or size. The other thing is, I think the X5 and X7 can be "co-flagships". People who want the ease of use of a touchscreen can go for the X7, and people who want output power can go for the X5. The main thing is that I don't want the X7 to end up the size of a DX100, or even 2/3 the size. It should be 1/2 the thickness, or less, honestly. Also, it could be possible that they can put two different outputs into the X7, one for power saving (and greater SNR for IEMs, etc.), and one for big output. That way, users can choose and decide whether they need all that power at their fingertips or no

 

You are right that most people probably won't need a lot of voltage gain. But it depends very much on who those people is. I doubt ESS has audiophile in mind when they design the amp chip, but that doesn't mean audiophiles won't have a good use of it, if it is proven to be capable. True being told, the only benefit of using 3.3V is because that's the minimum voltage for Li-ion battery (as most cut off around 3.3V), so it is more out of convenience rather than performance oriented. It is definitely going to be good enough for your general DAP, but is it good enough for an audiophile DAP? I mean, if I am going to pay for a DAP because it is advertised as an audiophile DAP, I would at least expect some above-the-average performance.

 

I disagree with the remark on AK100 - quite possibly the worst control and tightness of any audiophile DAP I have ever heard for the asking price (and compared poorly even with DAP 3/4~1/2 its price, if not less). I would think (some) iPod offer better power than AK100, with a very noticeable margin. Audiophile don't give enough credit for iPod, at least for what it is IMO.

 

Also, it is not just full can that is in concern. Look around of how many people have TOTL universal IEM and custom these day, and many of them are not easy to drive to fullness. Getting a good voltage rail has more to do with just a bigger voltage swing, it affects other areas of performance as well, transient, current output, etc. I do hope the new amp chip can shine, but I won't put too much stock into it just yet, consider that it is unlikely we will truly benefit from the kind of DNR / THD in an actual DAP.


Edited by ClieOS - 3/3/14 at 2:50am
post #4894 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cachicamo View Post


I'm interested as well, living in The Netherlands.

Me too. Also living in Belgium, also ordered on HDPHNS.com. Was about to pull the trigger on 64gb card, thinking 128 would be to expensive here (which it is). But for that amazon.com price, it's a done deal. ;-)

post #4895 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurdipurdi View Post
 

Me too. Also living in Belgium, also ordered on HDPHNS.com. Was about to pull the trigger on 64gb card, thinking 128 would be to expensive here (which it is). But for that amazon.com price, it's a done deal. ;-)

You got PM'd :P

post #4896 of 12550

I sincerely hope X7 as flagship DAP will come with DSD native, balance out, USB audio out, line out, dual TOTL DAC and plenty of horse power.

 

 

post #4897 of 12550
I still think if you want a decent portable dap, the X7 will have to have the frills cut down else it will be a thick heavy brick which is a complete turn off except if you intend to keep it on your desk. Provide a great well implemented amp/dac and I don't mind seeing no LO, I could even let go coax out, USB dac is good enough for me cause I don't see myself hooking the player to a nearby sound system any time soon.
post #4898 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicheaven View Post

I still think if you want a decent portable dap, the X7 will have to have the frills cut down else it will be a thick heavy brick which is a complete turn off except if you intend to keep it on your desk. Provide a great well implemented amp/dac and I don't mind seeing no LO, I could even let go coax out, USB dac is good enough for me cause I don't see myself hooking the player to a nearby sound system any time soon.


X3 sounds better than AK100 (this DAP has no power) at 1/3 of the price and X5 sounds better than AK120 at 1/4 of the price. (actually, I cannot remember how much these cost, just rough estimate). Therefore, I hope X7 will have those AK240 features. Of course I understand that form factor, design and UI are the things that sell big money. My bottom line is that I will not purchase a DAP without LO and digital out.Everyone has different priorities, it is good to have choices. :beerchug:

 

 

post #4899 of 12550

Good battery life.

Good UI.

Drives headphones well.

 

Pick 2 when buying a DAP.

post #4900 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicHolyGhost View Post


X3 sounds better than AK100 (this DAP has no power) at 1/3 of the price and X5 sounds better than AK120 at 1/4 of the price. (actually, I cannot remember how much these cost, just rough estimate). Therefore, I hope X7 will have those AK240 features. Of course I understand that form factor, design and UI are the things that sell big money. My bottom line is that I will not purchase a DAP without LO and digital out.Everyone has different priorities, it is good to have choices. beerchug.gif


Hey if they throw the kitchen sink with it, I'll be the first to rejoice but a huge dap, no merci.

Let's see what they'll come up with, the big advantage is that they'll have competitor daps to beat at a reasonable price which is what will put them to shame.
I am very curious about it, what are they going to do? basshead.gif
post #4901 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

You are right that most people probably won't need a lot of voltage gain. But it depends very much on who those people is. I doubt ESS has audiophile in mind when they design the amp chip, but that doesn't mean audiophiles won't have a good use of it, if it is proven to be capable. True being told, the only benefit of using 3.3V is because that's the minimum voltage for Li-ion battery (as most cut off around 3.3V), so it is more out of convenience rather than performance oriented. It is definitely going to be good enough for your general DAP, but is it good enough for an audiophile DAP? I mean, if I am going to pay for a DAP because it is advertised as an audiophile DAP, I would at least expect some above-the-average performance.

 

I disagree with the remark on AK100 - quite possibly the worst control and tightness of any audiophile DAP I have ever heard for the asking price (and compared poorly even with DAP 3/4~1/2 its price, if not less). I would think (some) iPod offer better power than AK100, with a very noticeable margin. Audiophile don't give enough credit for iPod, at least for what it is IMO.

 

Also, it is not just full can that is in concern. Look around of how many people have TOTL universal IEM and custom these day, and many of them are not easy to drive to fullness. Getting a good voltage rail has more to do with just a bigger voltage swing, it affects other areas of performance as well, transient, current output, etc. I do hope the new amp chip can shine, but I won't put too much stock into it just yet, consider that it is unlikely we will truly benefit from the kind of DNR / THD in an actual DAP.

 

Not sure if you've read through the press release, but the ES9601 is marketed to the audiophile sector, concurrent to A/V and mass consumer mobile device applications. ESS is quite a bit smaller than TI; as a supplier for mass consumer electronics, they're pretty small-fry, so the only reason why they get such over-representation in hi-fi is significant marketing effort to position their products as being "best" for hi-fi. Considering the myth that perpetuates amongst a lot of head-fiers that ESS makes the "best DACs", I'd say they've done a very good job of that, and I don't think they'd want to jeopardize their footing in this industry by introducing something that doesn't perform. Heck, Resonessence Labs is basically their technology demonstration house, so this means that if ESS is peddling this thing to hi-fi, I doubt it won't be suitable. At the same time, the difficulty with ESS is that an in-depth understanding of their ICs is required to design a good audio system around their products, as the documentation isn't readily available to the public.

 

There are more reasons for 3.3V supply rails than battery power. As I understand, a VCC = 3.3V is the established standard for modern, low voltage DSP circuits as their optimal operating voltage is low, and batteries merely follow the standard, just as many LDO and shunt regulators are standardized to output 3.3V these days. Almost all DAC chips run off 3.3V supply rails. Some allow the option for 5V supply rails as well for versatility, but it looks like the voltage trend is only going downward for surface-mount ICs, down to 2.5V and 1.8V.

 

From an Analog Devices primer document: (Click to show)
For nearly 20 years, the standard VDD for digital circuits was 5 V. This voltage level was used because bipolar transistor technology required 5 V to allow headroom for proper operation. However, in the late 1980s, Complimentary Metal Oxide Semiconductor (CMOS) became the standard for digital IC design. This process did not necessarily require the same voltage levels as TTL circuits, but the industry adopted the 5 V TTL standard logic threshold levels to maintain backward compatibility with older systems.

The current revolution in supply voltage reduction has been driven by demand for faster and smaller products at lower costs. This push has caused silicon geometries to drop from 2 μm in the early 1980s to 0.90 nm and 45 nm that is used in many of today's latest FPGA, microprocessor, and DSP designs. As feature sizes have become increasingly smaller, the voltage for optimum device performance has also dropped below the 5 V level. This is illustrated in the current FPGAs, microprocessors, and DSPs, where the optimum core operating voltage can be as low as 1 V or less.

The strong interest in lower voltage DSPs is clearly visible in the shifting sales percentages for 5 V and 3.3 V parts. Sales growth for 3.3 V DSPs has increased at more than twice the rate of the rest of the DSP market (30% for all DSPs versus more than 70% for 3.3 V devices). This trend will continue as the high volume/high growth portable markets demand signal processors that contain all of the traits of the lower voltage DSPs.

Source: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-098.pdf

 

As I understand it, the key for optimal performance of all solid-state components is to design a power system with good PSRR to provide the cleanest input voltage to critical components, such as the DAC, opamps, etc. Let's not make any assumptions about how this new IC works just yet.

 

I'm not trying to say you're wrong at all, but it's too early to dismiss the ES9601 as a possible option, just as it's too early to annoint it as the second coming of you-know-who. Again, I'm not saying we have to use the ES9601 --- not at all --- for all I know it might end up sounding like crap. All I'm saying is that we should keep an open mind about what should be put into future designs, as should FiiO.

 

The key is to create a product with the best sound quality possible, both measurably and audibly, and to preserve battery life without sacrificing on human interfacing capability.
 

With respect to flagship IEMs, I've yet to see anything, even with 10 drivers, that really challenges power delivery of even the most prosaic DAP. Nominal testing voltage for most BA drivers is 0.1 mV, and that drives them way above normal operating levels and into levels of significant distortion. Crossover circuits in multi-BA drivers are done almost exclusively in parallel, meaning the whole system is current, rather than voltage-limited, so I dispute the need for even the most taxing TOTL IEM to require a beefy amp to drive. Because of the wildly varying reactance of BA drivers, quoting impedance values at 1 kHz is highly misleading. So, even the Tzar 350, powered by a single TWFK-30195, with 350 ohms @1k, is pretty easy to drive. The SE 5-Way, sounds scary with 150+ ohms of impedance, is really not that difficult to drive. All of these drivers were built to be driven easily with subminiature Class D amplifiers, regardless of ohm count. I know of BA drivers that are rated at 1800 ohms of impedance, and really they're not that hard to drive. What these TOTL IEMs need is an amplifier that provides very high current output, regardless of voltage.

post #4902 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

 

Not sure if you've read through the press release....

 

"...audiophile-grade mobile devices such as smartphones, tablets, laptops and digital music players..."

 

I read it, but everyone can say they are making 'audiophile-grade' products for marketing purpose. Just about half (if not more) of the audio opamp TI makes are "audiophile" worthy, if you buy into their marketing. If fact, just about every audio opamp any chip maker make tend to get labeled as audiophiles grade. They are not wrong of course, as audiophile-or-not is largely a perspective and not some standard.

 

Whatever ES9601 may be, I am more interested in it as a mobile solution to the smartphone industry rather than an audiophile DAP. Well, maybe more to the mid to low end audiophile DAP. I still like to see proper power on higher end, even though many other might not need it but we are talking on a very niche market on some very specific consumer that are far more demanding than the average.

 

Regarding IEM, I am not actually referring to the high impedance IEM, but more to the really low impedance, under / near 10ohm variance that requires a really good (and fast) amount of current to behave well. Those are the one I often find to benefit from a beefy amp much more than the high impedance IEM.

post #4903 of 12550

FIIO X5 IN MY CAR

 

HI Guys

 

Is there any chance of connecting up a Fiio X5 to my 2014 Volkswagen which has a USB port as standard? Would love to play my 24 bit recordings in the car.

post #4904 of 12550

I am new to the forum only recently entering the world of high quality portable audio. At the moment I have my Galaxy S3 paired paired with a HRT Microstreamer (which I am probably going to sell) runng a pair of Grado SR80's and newly purchased Sennheiser Momentums Over Ear (not to be confused with the on ear model) which I love. I am seriously considering the purchase of a FIIO X5 after reading the review and would like some expert opinion on whether the headphones I have a good enough to enjoy the sound the X5 offers. I am also considering the purchase of the Sony XBA H3's due to sterling reviews this far.

 

So the idea is to have a pair of open backs, a pair of closed backs and a pair of quality in-ears to use with the X5. Opinions on this combo would be much appreciated. Cheers.

post #4905 of 12550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

Good battery life.

Good UI.

Drives headphones well.

 

Pick 2 when buying a DAP.

 

Well stated.

 

I'll go with the last two, any day, as long as it can be powered with an external battery pack (or, at least, charged while playing, using an external battery pack).

 

:D

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