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Fiio X5 Thread - info updated on Jan 17th 2014 - Page 79

post #1171 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesFiiO View Post
 

 

one thing I need to say that X3 still has the biggest output power compared with some new DAPs, that is why we are considering maybe people don't need such high power output.

 

in this way, it can improve the battery life, and control the heat, of course, save some money in the cost.

 

 

Thanks for responding, James.

 

I will admit that I ranted a bit a couple of days ago, but it's because I can't help 1) being disappointed that the X5 may not live up to your original claims that it would be your 'flagship' DAP, and 2) that I can't help wondering if you are restricting it a bit so that you have an excuse to make a more powerful X7 for more money.

 

 

But, broadly-speaking, I still like you and your company :wink:

 

 

There are already several DAPs on the market (even some expensive ones) that have an output stage that falls short, performance-wise. I really hope the X5 doesn't make the same mistake.


Edited by Mython - 9/16/13 at 11:52am
post #1172 of 7550

You ranted a bit? You were foaming at the mouth and shouting around like a crazy person. LOL. :veryevil:

 

I think sound quality is the most important. An amp 1.5 times more powerful than the X3 will still be weaker than the E12, so people who need the power of the E12 will stack anyway, those who need more will buy even more powerful amps like the PB2, SR71B, etc. I think the X3 is powerful enough for a wide variety of IEMs and efficient headphones, Most of the portable ones anyway. A lot of people could be very happy with the X3 power level. What are you trying to drive? Because if the X3 won't drive it, neither will adding 1.5 times more power to it. You'll need the E12 or more.

 

I think I would rather have improvements to sonics and GUI + even better battery life/overall size of the unit than increasing the power of the amp by 1.5 times. Plus heat actually is a real issue as James says. The X3 can get pretty warm under heavy load and I can see how James would have to delicately balance heat and battery life with raw amp power.

post #1173 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 

You ranted a bit? You were foaming at the mouth and shouting around like a crazy person. LOL. :veryevil:

 

I think sound quality is the most important. An amp 1.5 times more powerful than the X3 will still be weaker than the E12, so people who need the power of the E12 will stack anyway, those who need more will buy even more powerful amps like the PB2, SR71B, etc. I think the X3 is powerful enough for a wide variety of IEMs and efficient headphones, Most of the portable ones anyway. A lot of people could be very happy with the X3 power level. What are you trying to drive? Because if the X3 won't drive it, neither will adding 1.5 times more power to it. You'll need the E12 or more.

 

I think I would rather have improvements to sonics and GUI + even better battery life/overall size of the unit than increasing the power of the amp by 1.5 times. Plus heat actually is a real issue as James says. The X3 can get pretty warm under heavy load and I can see how James would have to delicately balance heat and battery life with raw amp power.

I can buy this. I (reluctantly) went back to a stack with an E12 because the X3 doesn't have enough voltage to drive my orthos to their optimum level. You can't stuff enough battery into a DAC to make up for this IMO, not without making it unwieldy.

Since I use LO, battery life doesn't get me anything but I would pay extra for better DAC and GUI.

post #1174 of 7550

I think it is an excellent choice for James to make a dap with the virtually same output of X3, that is smaller, working cooler and is more energy efficient. Actually in my case, i do not go out with hard-to-drive cans since they're all open and cannot be listened in the sounds of the city traffic in Istanbul. I used them at home where amping with a secondary device does not bother me.

In my account, a mass-product portable device (especially ones with a $400 etiquette) should be designed accordingly with the needs of portable cans ; not for the power thirsty planars or smth else that actually need a fairly fancy desktop amp to show their potential.

And that would be the exact point that would possibly separate X5 from DX100 or Hifiman 901, which are actually bricks that are relatively not easy to carry around as many other portable music players. So i think it was a good chooice for Fiio under these conditions, and i am eagerly expecting X5, which i assume would give a close sound quality to it's sabre utilized competitors, and much more portability from them.

post #1175 of 7550
Why does everyone always think that 'hard-to-drive' is only the domain of fullsize cans?


Some fullsize cans do better with a larger voltage swing, but the same can be said for some CIEMs (e.g. SE-5).


Some CIEMs present a particularly variable impedance and/or a particularly low impedance, and this demands better current delivery from the output stage.


There absolutely is a place for higher power output in a portable device intended for use with CIEMs. It's not just about volume levels or about inefficient fullsize cans.
post #1176 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenedosian View Post
 

I think it is an excellent choice for James to make a dap with the virtually same output of X3, that is smaller, working cooler and is more energy efficient. Actually in my case, i do not go out with hard-to-drive cans since they're all open and cannot be listened in the sounds of the city traffic in Istanbul. I used them at home where amping with a secondary device does not bother me.

In my account, a mass-product portable device (especially ones with a $400 etiquette) should be designed accordingly with the needs of portable cans ; not for the power thirsty planars or smth else that actually need a fairly fancy desktop amp to show their potential.

And that would be the exact point that would possibly separate X5 from DX100 or Hifiman 901, which are actually bricks that are relatively not easy to carry around as many other portable music players. So i think it was a good chooice for Fiio under these conditions, and i am eagerly expecting X5, which i assume would give a close sound quality to it's sabre utilized competitors, and much more portability from them.

I strongly disagree that there is no place for planars in a mobile environment. I take mine on every flight. Mine are closed and provide very adequate isolation.

 

That said, I agree a DAP should not (and really can't) be expected to drive them properly, which is why I use my X3 with an E12.

post #1177 of 7550

I talked generally about cans not without exceptions. I see that there are closed planars definitely hard to drive ; but as sbradley02 rightly stated, they would probably need an external amp to get most of them.

But you must see guys, there is always a political situation in the moves of the designers as well as our decisions in daily life.

You sacrifice something, and you get something.

 

Speaking of an "accessible" player that "should" cost $400 (not a boutiqe player for say $2k)

Thus :

My questions are in practical terms :

- How many percent of the future X5 buyers will use a CIEM (or smth like that) you mentioned, (or full-size) that X5 would not be able to drive to a satisfactory level on portable use? I guess it will not constitute the significant portion of the buyers.

- And second, if utilized, how much an even more powerful (and a more energy consuming & heating etc.) internal amp would contribute to the sound performance of a player that is already considered "a reference dap" (correct me if i'm mistaken), and most importantly at what cost?

 

My answers to those questions underlay my praisal of James' decision.

In other words :

1) If you put a stronger amp this would probably affect the satisfaction level of a relatively small friction of buyers (you friends that wish a more powerful amp for their CIEMs for example). say 10 percent or even 20.

2) however this will affect the majority of people (that do not use hard-to-drive or highly voltage sensitive cans) in several negative terms

a) cost

b) shorter battery life

c) bigger cabin and worse ergonomics (probably)

d) more heating

 

These are my reasons. Not that i do not want a more powerful X5 (would be juicy in fact :) having better output to feed my voltage hungry cans, but i guess it is the right thing to do in this situation. My aim for writing these is not to revive a debate closed a while ago, but to show that it has some clear logic behind it.

And we will probably have an X7 in the future, for our wishes of a power pokemon dap can be realized :)


Edited by tenedosian - 9/17/13 at 4:26am
post #1178 of 7550

As a new owner of X3, for which I paid 251.99, I was shocked to learn X5 in on its way.......

Honestly speaking, except for audio quality, everything else about X3 has a huge potential to improve. With the launch of AD120, iBasso Dx100 etc etc, I strongly think the dSD decoding is a must along with better software, better interface, dual card support, support for external storage device etc etc.

post #1179 of 7550

DSD decoding is a must? I really don't think so. How many of us have dsd to listen to and if we have a dsd, do we really want to listen to it in a portable life or a nice home system? 24/192 support would make everyone happy in my opinion. DSD is asking too much if you ask me, and it is even dangerous for the device too. It makes it extremely hot, that temperature can damage the device. Also as expected, the battery life goes to half of usual.

post #1180 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post
 

DSD decoding is a must? I really don't think so.

 

700

post #1181 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post
 

 

700

You again, made me laugh again :beerchug:

post #1182 of 7550
How many can even tell between DSD and FLAC in a portable rig and even more importantly, how much material is available for that format.
post #1183 of 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by gikigill View Post

How many can even tell between DSD and FLAC in a portable rig and even more importantly, how much material is available for that format.

+1

Use the poll at the beginning of this thread to concentrate on what is most important.

For example, it would be cool if the X5 have enough voltage/current to drive my orthos adequately. I know that this would make the unit far too large and heavy, and would severely restrict its appeal, and I am at the fringe in respect to drive capacity. Therefore I know I will continue using an amp with the X5.

 

There is a concept in product management called return on investment. Only 3% of the responders said DSD is their most important feature. Therefore it should be VERY low on Fiio's priority list.

post #1184 of 7550

DSD is not important for me and never will be.

post #1185 of 7550

Just to play Devil's advocate here... 

 

How many of you that say you don't need DSD support, have heard Native DSD with at least a decent system behind it? Just wondering...

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