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Ultrasone Edition 12 announced in Japan - Page 13

post #181 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawdawg3234 View Post

That's what I said.. Even though I believe the soundstage has something to do with the "slowness" I was talking about. Same thing happened with my hd650's. they were garbage to me. They're definitely not for "faster" music.

Might have something to do with the passive radiator design? I found that the HD700s sounded over saturated. With that design you're not only getting the sound coming from the drivers but that coming off the radiators with a slight delay. For me, it created a forward but in-direct sound. The HD598 had something in the cups that if I'm remembering right blocked the path between the driver and your ears, so you'd only be hearing the sound after it had reflected off of the cups. That headphones sounded smoothed over(or veiled) and had some weird separation in the soundstage. When listening to metal I'd get the drums in one ear and the guitars in the other, the center image was appalling. I haven't tried the 600 series, but going based on what I have heard I'd say Senn's design philosophy is all about having the sound reflecting off the cups into your ears(rather than straight from the driver).

Both headphones reminded me of the sound I got from my STAX when I tried the T1 tube amp. Maybe the way Senn headphones are designed, it creates some kind of even-order harmonics? Am I getting at something here, or just shouting a bunch of bull? tongue.gif
post #182 of 311
This is a thread about ULTRASONE EDITION 12.
post #183 of 311
Though not that reliable AUDIO mentioned a slight treble emphasize in their Edition 12 review. Kinda surprising after such well made headphones like the signature series.

http://www.audio.de/testbericht/ultrasone-edition-12-im-test-1534943.html
Edited by Fegefeuer - 9/6/13 at 1:57pm
post #184 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post

This is a thread about ULTRASONE EDITION 12.

+1
Great point. Sennheiser was only brought up as a reference to giving a headphone an appropriate amount of time before describing its sound signature. I think it also brought up a valid point about how varied most views are about how something "sounds" which is a huge argument when talking about ultrasone products.
post #185 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawdawg3234 View Post

+1
Great point. Sennheiser was only brought up as a reference to giving a headphone an appropriate amount of time before describing its sound signature. I think it also brought up a valid point about how varied most views are about how something "sounds" which is a huge argument when talking about ultrasone products.
Ah, but it was relevant. I can't talk much about the ED12 until it arrives(tomorrow?) Talking about Senn not only shows what my experience was with the last headphone I've tried but I think the design of Senn's products are trying to achieve a similar goal to Ultrasone's S-logic. I find impressions on a headphone to be completely useless unless I know said reviewer's taste on other headphones. Senn is a popular brand, and it seems that most of us here have some experience with them so that is why I posted. The HD700 is the headphone most fresh in my mind and what I will be comparing the Ultrasone to for the most part.
post #186 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by MohawkUS View Post

Ah, but it was relevant. I can't talk much about the ED12 until it arrives(tomorrow?) Talking about Senn not only shows what my experience was with the last headphone I've tried but I think the design of Senn's products are trying to achieve a similar goal to Ultrasone's S-logic. I find impressions on a headphone to be completely useless unless I know said reviewer's taste on other headphones. Senn is a popular brand, and it seems that most of us here have some experience with them so that is why I posted. The HD700 is the headphone most fresh in my mind and what I will be comparing the Ultrasone to for the most part.
Very revelant and informative. I am gonna do some more research on sennheisers sound cause I'm a little stumped how most consider the hd800 one of the top headphones. My desktop setup isn't the best but I can't see how upgrading will change what I'm hearing completely. Improve upon what's there? Yes.
post #187 of 311

Ok then I will add that the HD 580/600/650 are a very old fashioned design, no angled drivers there.

post #188 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by MohawkUS View Post

Might have something to do with the passive radiator design? I found that the HD700s sounded over saturated. With that design you're not only getting the sound coming from the drivers but that coming off the radiators with a slight delay. For me, it created a forward but in-direct sound. The HD598 had something in the cups that if I'm remembering right blocked the path between the driver and your ears, so you'd only be hearing the sound after it had reflected off of the cups. That headphones sounded smoothed over(or veiled) and had some weird separation in the soundstage. When listening to metal I'd get the drums in one ear and the guitars in the other, the center image was appalling. I haven't tried the 600 series, but going based on what I have heard I'd say Senn's design philosophy is all about having the sound reflecting off the cups into your ears(rather than straight from the driver).

Both headphones reminded me of the sound I got from my STAX when I tried the T1 tube amp. Maybe the way Senn headphones are designed, it creates some kind of even-order harmonics? Am I getting at something here, or just shouting a bunch of bull? tongue.gif

I don't want to come across as rude but I am opting for the second half of your last sentence smily_headphones1.gif. I have never ever heard of a passive radiator design in a headphone, and especially not in a sennheiser open design. A passive radiator is used in speakers as bass tuning, midway between a sealed and ported design.

The HD700, unlike the HD800 with it's ring radiator and absence of audible mechanical resonances in the diaphragm, relies on a traditional membrane. Both headphones share the same open (thin wiremesh) baffle design / angled drivers, yet the HD700 has significant resonances in the upper mids/highs which have been attributed to the driver. Subjectively, as I recall reading impressions, the HD700 is a hit and miss depending of the listener's taste and/or frame of reference. E.g, many seem to have been bothered by the resonances and associated ringing / smearing, but some actually prefer a more lively presentation to the drier sound of a more "controlled" headphone.

In this way, the Hd700 is a anormally in typical senn's house sound (at least as far as flagship dynamic models of the last 15 years) as the HD580, 6X0, and especially 800. Why am rambling on senn, it's an Ultrasone thread after all! Well, my feeling is that, with the Hd700, senn has actually been trying to make a ultrasone like lively sounding phone. I vividly remember how impressed I was by the apparent speed of the Edition 9 and it's totally fun / lively sound. It would take me a few seconds to get over the "strange" tonality and I would then get into the music and enjoy a very raw snappy sound. I recall it portraying a very good sense of space as I could easily hear all the reverberation.

I loved my ed. 9 the whole time I owned it but upgraditis eventually striked in. That's when I moved to other transducers that I realized how peculiar the ultrasone sound was. As it turns out, the edition 9 (and other ultrasones I heard - edition series), had these sharp resonances in the midrange to treble region that were definitely noticeable when you started listening to the can but that my brain could soon get accustomed to. Are they a byproduct of the s-logic and it's indirect driver radiation or the diaphragm itself? I don't think it was ever proved by anyone but I suspect it's the acoustic resonances / reflections from the complex baffle and that the diaphragm is probably rigid over a good portion of the audio range.

I did not like the edition 10 most times I listened to it because of these similar midrange colorations, but it's worth noting I had been owning HD800 and Stax Omega rigs after the edition 9 so my tastes had diverged from the fun / colored sound of the edition 9 to something more neutral and less "gimmicky" in its presentation.

It appears Ultrasone has listened to the feedback from the market this time and the velour pads of the edition 12 is likely to make it sound more pleasant to me than the previous flagship so I am willing to give it a spin next time I get an occasion.

In conclusion, I agree that it's not fair to dismiss a brand entirely and hate it just because it's the norm. For one, designs can change (s-logic has actually evolved over the generations, edition 12 seems to tackle the brightness issues of the ed 10 through the ear pad...). Also, however small it might be here on HF, there's a market for ultrasone's house sound. Personally, I suspect it's more for the "less" experienced audience (like someone coming from colored speaker rigs or other non audiophile headphones) and/or people who favor a fun sound over an accurate one. There's nothing wrong with this, but people should state their preferences, experiences and what gear they compared against when reviewing such phone so that the audiences can put impressions into context.
post #189 of 311

As I said, I'm an unapologetic Ultraone fan, but I can't get along with fit. The 10 were just not my cup of tea, but otherwise, I'm into Ultraone sound. The DJ1Pro remain at the top of my close favourite list up to a rather high price point. The 20-30 minutes I spent with the 12 made me realise that Utrasone's open circumaural headphones are still damn nice. 

post #190 of 311
I am really anxious for some people to buy the Edition 12 and post their impressions and reviews about it. I own a Pro 900 and have really enjoyed that can but am wanting a higher end Ultrasone headphone. Am hoping the Edition 12 will be the one I buy at tax return time. Does anyone know if the cable is detachable like the Edition 8 Romeo? If so am hoping Ultrasone makes a detachable cable that will fit it with a 1/8 inch mini plug because all my amps have the small mini jack. If worse case scenario may have to make a custom cable like I did for my Pro 900 using ALO SXC 22 gauge cable. That cable sounds awesome!
Edited by WizardKnight - 9/7/13 at 4:47am
post #191 of 311

I'm tempted to see if I can't borrow a pair for review. I missed listening to them when I was in Tokyo last. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawdawg3234 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wink View Post

The slowness is a problem with the rest of your system, not the HD800.

That's what I said.. Even though I believe the soundstage has something to do with the "slowness" I was talking about. Same thing happened with my hd650's. they were garbage to me. They're definitely not for "faster" music.

 

Ironically, of course, I am listening with a pair of (modded) HD-800s as I am catching up on this thread. They are definitely not slow out of this loaner ALO Studio Six....not by a long shot. Nothing is, mind you. It'd be interesting to know what your current rig is as Ultrasone's seem to work well with unexpected gear.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawdawg3234 View Post
 
I must be crazy.. 

 

Be careful, you might end up with a custom title. :wink_face:

post #192 of 311

It's here. biggrin.gif

First impressions, well the packaging isn't very impressive. The HD700 came in a nice storage box; these came in a plain white cardboard box(what you see above is a sleeve that goes over said box.) Honestly I prefer spartan packaging like this. Had I kept the Senns the fancy packaging would have just been sitting in a closet somewhere, fancy packaging always leaves me asking "What am I really paying for here?". I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't come with a headphones stand like the ED10s but I suppose something had to give to get these to the price they are at. I'd rather lose out on that then sacrifice on sound quality.

Onto the headphones themselves, I can easily understand the complaints on fit though I have no such issues myself. In fact I think these are the most comfortable headphones I've had the pleasure of owning. I'm generally really picky when it comes to headbands as well as velour pads. While the pads themselves aren't quite as good as those on the HD700, the headband is perfect. Too many headphones have either no padding or far too much, leaving me with pressure on the top of my head. Wether it's the fancy goat leather or the small amount of padding I'm highly impressed. And while these headphones don't clamp in the slightest; neither will they fall off your head while headbanging.



Onto the sound; For the first few songs I was completely thrown off by the S-logic. Anyone trying these out really owes it to themselves to sit through a full album or more to get used to the effect before reaching any conclusions. From the second album forward I noticed two things:

1. Despite using different technologies the ED12, SR-5, and HE-6 all sound more alike than different. The differences pretty much fall right into the stereotypes of each tech with the Ultrasone having the best tone, the STAX the airiest sound, and the HiFiman having good presence but a very closed in sound-stage.

2. Ultrasone's description of these is spot on. "The transducers are selected with care and are responsible for the imposing spatial quality of the sound with velvety trebles, balanced midranges and precise basses." The bass is as tight as my STAX, the midrange sounds great, and the treble brings back memories of the Beyerdynamic T90 and it's velvety sound. Fortunately the ED12 aren't so velvety to come off as veiled(unlike the T90), the effect here is much more subtle. And while these headphones are bright they are less-so than the Hifiman and the STAX; and much less-so than the PRO2900 which rendered most of my library a painful listen. I can't say for sure what the Senn and Audeze fans will think of it, but I know as fact some will still find them too bright. What I can say though is that I started my listening with the worst mastered album that I own and it was perfectly listenable.

And I think I'll leave it there. Once I've got some more time on these I'll go more in depth about where they stack up. For the moment I can state that these are impressing me quite a lot; even more so than the HD700(said review can be read here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/673168/headamp-hd700-demo-review#) The HD700s impressed me because of their technical ability; I heard potential in them but they were ultimately let down by their heavily colored sound. These are impressed me both on a technical level and with their tonal balance.

There really haven't been any surprises with these. I'm pleased that Ultrasone described them so well on their website. I'm hearing exactly what I expected(and was hoping for.) These have an unknown number of hours on them as I bought them open box. The PRO2900 changed drasticly during burn-in so I'll keep you guys updated if I notice anything here.
Edited by MohawkUS - 9/7/13 at 6:37pm
post #193 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by MohawkUS View Post
 
 
It's here. biggrin.gif

First impressions, well the packaging isn't very impressive. The HD700 came in a nice storage box; these came in a plain white cardboard box(what you see above is a sleeve that goes over said box.) Honestly I prefer spartan packaging like this. Had I kept the Senns the fancy packaging would have just been sitting in a closet somewhere, fancy packaging always leaves me asking "What am I really paying for here?". I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't come with a headphones stand like the ED10s but I suppose something had to give to get these to the price they are at. I'd rather lose out on that then sacrifice on sound quality.

Onto the headphones themselves, I can easily understand the complaints on fit though I have no such issues myself. In fact I think these are the most comfortable headphones I've had the pleasure of owning. I'm generally really picky when it comes to headbands as well as velour pads. While the pads themselves aren't quite as good as those on the HD700, the headband is perfect. Too many headphones have either no padding or far too much, leaving me with pressure on the top of my head. Wether it's the fancy goat leather or the small amount of padding I'm highly impressed. And while these headphones don't clamp in the slightest; neither will they fall off your head while headbanging.



Onto the sound; For the first few songs I was completely thrown off by the S-logic. Anyone trying these out really owes it to themselves to sit through a full album or more to get used to the effect before reaching any conclusions. From the second album forward I noticed two things:

1. Despite using different technologies the ED12, SR-5, and HE-6 all sound more alike than different. The differences pretty much fall right into the stereotypes of each tech with the Ultrasone having the best tone, the STAX the airiest sound, and the HiFiman having good presence but a very closed in sound-stage.

2. Ultrasone's description of these is spot on. "The transducers are selected with care and are responsible for the imposing spatial quality of the sound with velvety trebles, balanced midranges and precise basses." The bass is as tight as my STAX, the midrange sounds great, and the treble brings back memories of the Beyerdynamic T90 and it's velvety sound. Fortunately the ED12 aren't so velvety to come off as veiled(unlike the T90), the effect here is much more subtle. And while these headphones are bright they are less-so than the Hifiman and the STAX; and much less-so than the PRO2900 which rendered most of my library a painful listen. I can't say for sure what the Senn and Audeze fans will think of it, but I know as fact some will still find them too bright. What I can say though is that I started my listening with the worst mastered album that I own and it was perfectly listenable.

And I think I'll leave it there. Once I've got some more time on these I'll go more in depth about where they stack up. For the moment I can state that these are impressing me quite a lot; even more so than the HD700(said review can be read here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/673168/headamp-hd700-demo-review#) The HD700s impressed me because of their technical ability; I heard potential in them but they were ultimately let down by their heavily colored sound. These are impressed me both on a technical level and with their tonal balance.

There really haven't been any surprises with these. I'm pleased that Ultrasone described them so well on their website. I'm hearing exactly what I expected(and was hoping for.)

 

Thanks for the comments. Just to be sure, are you saying you prefer these over the HE-6? And what are you using to amp your HE-6? Your source?

 

These are curiosity questions, nothing more.. just want to know if I should take a crack at these in the near future. Thanks

post #194 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greed View Post

Thanks for the comments. Just to be sure, are you saying you prefer these over the HE-6? And what are you using to amp your HE-6? Your source?

These are curiosity questions, nothing more.. just want to know if I should take a crack at these in the near future. Thanks

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Though I think my amplifier is bottlenecking all three headphones: my STAX, the Ultrasone, and the HE-6. They all have a similar amount of detail. Power isn't an issue as I'm using a 40W(I think, might be 50W) a channel vintage amp. What's odd though is that I perceived more detail out of the Beyerdynamic T90 in vocals(only with vocals and the tone was off). At that point I had a Graham Slee Solo UL:D on hand and there really wasn't any difference in performance between it and my receiver. About the HE-6 though, my main problem with it was comfort. Perhaps the soundstage opens up more and the bass comes in on a higher quality amplifier but considering I was feeling pain within 10 minutes of putting it on I wasn't too willing to experiment.

Source and amp have remained consistent. I've used my Sherwood amplifier; and I switch between my turntable, cassette deck, and digital sources with all headphones I've tested.(the exact models can be seen on my page.)

When I find 'the' headphone I'm going to be getting a modern amplifier. I switched to vintage back when I had the PRO2900s and I did so because it was cheap and it helped to tame them a bit. I've kind of been stuck in the vintage camp as I've been using my STAX and transformer box; and because I'm not going to buy anything until I've settled on one pair of headphones as I've said. I've had too many impedance mismatches in the past leaving me with buzzing amps and poor sound.


One thing that really stands out about Ultrasone phones that I forgot to mention in my initial impressions: When listening to rock or metal music I hear the guitar amplifier in full. With most headphones I only hear the notes coming out of thin air; with both the ED12 and with the Pro2900 the amplifiers themselves come through as distinct entities. You can kind of get an idea of the size of amp used as well as if it's ported or sealed. Reminds me of the old head-fi cliche "You can hear their fingers moving up and down along the strings of the guitar" except I've never heard that myself.
Edited by MohawkUS - 9/7/13 at 4:59pm
post #195 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

Ironically, of course, I am listening with a pair of (modded) HD-800s as I am catching up on this thread. They are definitely not slow out of this loaner ALO Studio Six....not by a long shot. Nothing is, mind you. It'd be interesting to know what your current rig is as Ultrasone's seem to work well with unexpected gear.


Be careful, you might end up with a custom title. wink_face.gif

For my desktop I'm using the woo wa6se with eml rectifier and some silvania tubes. Can't think of their nomenclature at the moment. Also I tube roll quite a bit so I spent some time trying to pair up with the hd800's.

My semi-portable is the HP-P1 by fostex. Which is what the Ed 10's sound the best out of. I don't believe a tube amp is compatible with the ultrasone line up.
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