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JVC HA-SZ2000/1000 Impressions Thread - Page 79

post #1171 of 3524

They aren't bassy unEQ'd, in fact I find it suprisingly NOT bassy for a bass marketed headphone. There's headphones out there with +15dB boost to go. Should be a disclaimer that these are BASS capable and can take a lot of it and go loud before distorting but in the default package, it's not overly bassy at all.

 



The lower midrange boost is also the reason for muddiness, definitely needs some lowering in the 200 - 1kHz range.
 


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 6/26/14 at 1:39pm
post #1172 of 3524

.


Edited by Nick123194 - 6/26/14 at 3:38pm
post #1173 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post
 

They aren't bassy unEQ'd, in fact I find it suprisingly NOT bassy for a bass marketed headphone. There's headphones out there with +15dB boost to go. Should be a disclaimer that these are BASS capable and can take a lot of it and go loud before distorting but in the default package, it's not overly bassy at all.

 



The lower midrange boost is also the reason for muddiness, definitely needs some lowering in the 200 - 1kHz range.
 

Yea, I bought these understanding that they are themselves not boosted much at all, but what makes them special is their potential. I mean of course It's more convenient and simple to have a can an already boosted low end. But there was no way I was about to pass up "The king of basshead cans"! :D  I'm not a huge EQ Guy. I kind of like the whole plug and go situation, though I'm definitely willing to change that for these cans, but I just need to find this sweet spot everybody seems to have been finding. I mean I've only been using crappy music app EQ's and ones built into downloader or streamer apps. So Quality may play it's part in EQing? I have an iPhone and soon a new laptop to use as sources for these. I'm just not sure what else I can do though. I've tried my iPhone's EQ and a couple amps' bass boost options, but the only way I get somewhat decent amounts of bass is if I play them so loud that it kind of actually hurts and the music just sounds obnoxious. I was hoping for a more enveloping, full, club-type bass, but all I've found so far was very tame bass or when blasted, just loud screaming kind of annoying bass. I know why these cans were labeled Kings, I just need to know what I'm not putting in these to get out what others seem to be getting.

post #1174 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by milk View Post

My Sz2000s arrived a few days ago and I've been listening to them and am a bit disappointed. I actually dig their sound signature and make a good listen, but it no way did I find them very bassy. I'm honestly hoping I'm doing something wrong because I was pretty happy about getting the bass kings, lmao. So I've been using my iphone as a source and as for amps, I've used the e12, e07k, And PA2v2. None of them make these bassy, but the e07k does make them decent. I also have used a small built in eq in the music app on my iphone when I'm not using spotify or something of that nature.

I'll probably keep them for the smooth listening but I'm really bummed that I didn't get that brain damaging bass I was anticipating so much.
If there's anything I can do to make my experience improve, any help is much appreciated. I've been using tracks by the Floozies who make some sweet trance and electronic funk to test the bass, so if these tracks seemed appropriate for these cans bass capabilities, I'm hoping to find what will make good synergy for this type of music. Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPoNPAZGWuc

Again any help will be much appreciated. I'm dying to get some killer bass from these so all suggestions are welcomed. Thanks guys! (:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummel View Post
 

I am still not settling on these phones for my bass music. I would still like to try the ultrasone pro900 and the denon d600. I can believe these jvc can give you the most bass at extreme levels without the phones giving up. But i would like to have the most bass at normal listening levels. I have to turn these jvc's so loud to get the bass i want that my ears start ringing after a while

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanCitySound View Post

I'm trying to determine if these are going to be listenable for me. The Sony xb series was horrible for me, muddy mids and highs. Are these just bass canons or do they really have reasonable mids, highs imaging and clarity, using the Sony xb series (mainly the 500) as a benchmark? Thanks.

 

 

 

You need EQ. You want to be able to crank the bass up to their limits without the rest of the frequencies touching your perceived loudness threshold, so you need to raise the bass frequencies (which is equivalent to lowering the rest, if you use a negative preamp).

 

I tested the SZ bass with an SPL meter and it reached 125dB with no distortion. I reproduced the test videos below.

 

If you want to know how loud 125dB bass is, here are some videos from a quick YouTube search:

 

 

 

 

The subwoofers above don't even reach 125dB.

 

I recorded the output of my EQ settings, so try this pre-EQd test track with everything flat. Raising the volume +24dB raises the vocals at normal volume; now raise the volume further until it distorts.

 

If you have parametric EQ, here are some decent settings for the SZ (still on trial--I'm trying to replicate the Windows 50Hz bass boost through pEQ):

 

Filter : ON PEQ Fc 50,0 Hz Gain 24,0 dB Q 1,000

Filter : ON PEQ Fc 25,0 Hz Gain 21,0 dB Q 1,000
Filter : ON  PEQ     Fc 3000 Hz   Gain 21.00 dB  BW Oct 4.000

 

 

Here is the SPL test I did the other day:

 

ubqAvYil.jpg

 

SPL meter:

RadioShack Digital Sound Level Meter

 

mics_group3.gif

 

RealTraps measurements above show the device to be accurate around -3dB from 30Hz to 1KHz, C weighting.

 

 

Test track:

Isolated bass track of Wiz Khalifa - On My Level

 

I attenuated the vocals and other instruments in Wiz Khalifa - On My Level and isolated the bass track (not perfect, you can still hear vocals if you crank the volume too high). So while the headphones may do better with specific sine waves, it may not reflect real-world reproduction. On My Level has become the community favorite for testing bass (hardest impact kick drum and teeth chattering subbass), so it was only apt to continue using it as _THE_ bass benchmark.

 

 

Procedure:

For the SZ I used the 77X earpads sealed with packaging tape. The 77X drivers are quite peculiar in that they require a high pressure seal to prevent distortion.

 

 

JVC HA-SZ2000 maximum bass SPL before distortion:

 

 

 

 

JVC HA-MR77X maximum bass SPL before distortion:

 

 

 

Results:

JVC HA-SZ2000 max SPL: 125dB

JVC HA-MR77X max SPL: 109dB

 

The JVC HA-MR77X is Hawaiibadboy's basscannon that started it all, and it can reach 109dB before distortion. Compare this to the reigning bass king, the SZ2000 which reached 125dB maximum before distortion. This 16dB difference is quite significant in terms of perception, determining the difference between an average loud house stereo listening and a front row rock concert experience:

 

 

Cdtby9k.png

 

 

The SZ stays true to the "Live Beat" design principle, where at 125dB it can realistically reproduce the average loudness of live drumming (this rating was averaged from the front row to the drum throne)--the only headphones known so far that can do so.

 

UPDATE:

 

The RadioShack meter has a 126dB limit. My initial testing was not precise as I am using the analog volume control of the Fiio E12. The SZ2000 reaches 126dB easily on the test track, which means that it can potentially go louder. The 77X also reaches 110dB without distortion, as I later realized in the video. I need a new, cheap SPL meter that can record beyond 130dB so at least I can say the SZ2000 passes the RTA/SPL certification of the IASCA (an official SPL competition authority), which requires at least 130dB.

 

One very weird fact: I could get the 77X to go as loud as the SZ!--but I had to press the cups real hard to my head. Apparently the drivers rely on a high pressure seal. Perhaps a vise grip mod to the 77X would work for the starving basshead, considering that they're only $59.

post #1175 of 3524

So I'm seeing that most of the complaints come from iOS users.

 

If only JetAudio had an iOS app, but the JetAudio BBE mach3bass effect should be available in iOS since BBE itself launched its own iOS app, the SonicMax Pro.

 

For parametric EQ, I couldn't find anything decent from Android, but I did find something for iOS: the Remaster app, which you use with Audiobus to connect the audio output of any app to Remaster.

 

For Android, I used to use the built-in Cyanogenmod DSP Manager since its extreme bass boost was the best. But after CM10.1, all audio output is no longer routed to DSP Manager, so I couldn't match it with JetAudio anymore. JetAudio was awesome, but alone it is not enough for my needs.

post #1176 of 3524

Wow! Smiley, thanks for all of those graphs and videos! It open my eyes further about what these cans are about and what makes them special! Incredible work man! I appreciate it! So it seems I have the power from my E12 (Wish the bass boost was better but I hear it's the best match atm so I'll stick with it) and now I just need to EQ these suckers properly! 

 

Yea, It's a drag I use an iPhone as they have such limits as far as EQs, and music quality etc. They're not awful, but I definitely can say they wouldn't be my first pick for listening to music. I really plan on trying to use these with my laptop with a very nice EQ, and for the meantime, toy around with the best ones I can find for iPhone and use check out Audiobus. The low quality ones distort the sound but that's more of a quality issue. Not the SZ2000s problem.

 

I do definitely find it assuring that these are really unique and in a league of their own. I find relief that they have extreme potential, because I'll put what it takes in to get what these babies are capable of, I just needed to know if what I was looking for was still a possibility I originally believed it, and now it seems like it is!

 

Again, I'll just mess around with your suggestions, and check out some other EQs and when I get my new laptop (Hopefully soon... Picking is a drag), I'll definitely go a little more all out on some EQing. Again Smiley, I appreciate your help a lot, it has gotten be back into the hype of these cans and it feels good, lmfao. Thanks again, man your extensive testing on them is awesome! Keep up the good work, buddy!

post #1177 of 3524

I dont use these headphones on an iphone. I use them on my desktop with the fiio e17 connected with an optical cable. 
The bass hits hard yes, but I think i can get harder hitting cans when i play on this volume. When you max out the EQ ... the music also has to be listenable. I REALLY like the overall sound of these tho. They have a great soundstage and sound good with all kinds of music. But i mainly listen to house music

Regi in the mix is the max ;)

 

If I buy the JVC HA-MR55X pads, what does this do to the sound? Does it give more bass or just comfort?


Edited by hummel - 6/26/14 at 4:05pm
post #1178 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummel View Post
 

I dont use these headphones on an iphone. I use them on my desktop with the fiio e17 connected with an optical cable. 
The bass hits hard yes, but I think i can get harder hitting cans when i play on this volume. When you max out the EQ ... the music also has to be listenable. I REALLY like the overall sound of these tho. They have a great soundstage and sound good with all kinds of music. But i mainly listen to house music

Regi in the mix is the max ;)

 

If I buy the JVC HA-MR55X pads, what does this do to the sound? Does it give more bass or just comfort?

 

Without distortion?

 

No.

 

55mm carbon diaphragm dual chamber dual ported. NOTHING hits harder.

You still have stock pads.

 

Tell me which cans hit harder? cb3723 probably owns them. We can compare.

 

There is nothing.

 

55x pads will give the bass I get

post #1179 of 3524

@ hawaiibadboy I think you dont fully understand what I mean. I use my fiio e17 with these settings: gain +12. bass +10. treble -2 and volume max +24. This is the max volume that I can handle before my ears start ringing after a while. At this volume they hit hard, but not like a subwoofer. But I also think that none headphone will distort at this volume, but some phones can give more bass at this level of listening I think. And I think the beats pro is an example of this and perhaps the ultrasone pro900? I havent had the chance to test the ultrasone, but I will have those next week. 
I ordered a bunch of headphones on amazon to try out. Denon d600, beats pro and ultrasone pro900. I am really curious if there is a headphone that will perform better bass wise than the sz2000 AT MY LISTENING LEVEL.

 

And the 55x pads will not give the bass you get, because I only have the fiioe17 and not the cowon + e12 i think? Is there such a big difference if you chance the pads then? thats so weird ;)

post #1180 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummel View Post
 

I dont use these headphones on an iphone. I use them on my desktop with the fiio e17 connected with an optical cable. 
The bass hits hard yes, but I think i can get harder hitting cans when i play on this volume. When you max out the EQ ... the music also has to be listenable. I REALLY like the overall sound of these tho. They have a great soundstage and sound good with all kinds of music. But i mainly listen to house music

Regi in the mix is the max ;)

 

If I buy the JVC HA-MR55X pads, what does this do to the sound? Does it give more bass or just comfort?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummel View Post
 

@ hawaiibadboy I think you dont fully understand what I mean. I use my fiio e17 with these settings: gain +12. bass +10. treble -2 and volume max +24. This is the max volume that I can handle before my ears start ringing after a while. At this volume they hit hard, but not like a subwoofer. But I also think that none headphone will distort at this volume, but some phones can give more bass at this level of listening I think. And I think the beats pro is an example of this and perhaps the ultrasone pro900? I havent had the chance to test the ultrasone, but I will have those next week. 
I ordered a bunch of headphones on amazon to try out. Denon d600, beats pro and ultrasone pro900. I am really curious if there is a headphone that will perform better bass wise than the sz2000 AT MY LISTENING LEVEL.

 

And the 55x pads will not give the bass you get, because I only have the fiioe17 and not the cowon + e12 i think? Is there such a big difference if you chance the pads then? thats so weird ;)

 

 

 

Before anything else, Hummel, every, time I see your name I always remember CB's genius post about you...right now I'm still clutching my stomach laughing

 

Okay.

 

I will try to answer you seriously without laughing.

 

I think what you're trying to say is that, you can't raise the bass enough with the equipment you have (E17) and you can't lower the rest of the frequencies either--the 2KHz-5KHz range for example breaches your perceived loudness threshold earlier than the other ranges. You can't raise the volume further as the more sensitive frequencies get too loud. You are stuck with these settings, and with these same settings the SZ2000 bass cannot deliver (because the only control you have is the volume control, which raises the volume of all the frequencies). And with the same settings, you are comparing other headphones with stock FRs that have the bass boosted higher than the SZ's.

 

With your reasoning, you are trying to solve your problem by relying on stock FRs. Hey, many, if not the majority, in here are averse to audio processing of any kind and rely on stock FR. I respect that. That is fine. And costly.

 

You need EQ. Because it's cheap. And it can bend your perceived FR however you want it (within an inaudible margin of error). For example, you have headphones that are harsh on the 2KHz-5KHz range and lacking in the sub 100Hz range. You can use EQ to attenuate (turn down) the 2KHz-5Khz range and emphasize (turn up) the sub 100Hz range to make the FR flat. In fact, Golden Ears has launched an EQ product that simply uses an inverse linear filter customized to match the stock FR of your headphones, basically cancelling out the dips and spikes for a resulting flat FR.

 

However magical a tool it is, EQ cannot correct room reverberations. Excessive room reverb is when sound gets echoed off walls (such as the headphone cups and earpads) and create standing waves that interfere with the direct sound (sound coming directly from the speaker). This is why it is ideal to have an anechoic chamber (basically a chamber with walls that absorb sound to mimic an infinitely open space, and at the same time prevent external noise), or a simulation of it when it comes to headphones. To minimize room reverb in headphones, most of the big name manufacturers use an open design, which you will notice is the most implemented design among Summit-Fi cans. For closed headphones, some line the interior with sound absorbent material. Room reverb is the bane of acoustic engineers. For bassheads, however, room reverb is often beneficial especially for the lower end, as it adds room gain to the lower frequencies and sometimes lowers the peak frequency, making the bass deeper. Basshead cans such as the old XB series have these huge, roomy leather pillows for earpads that enhance the bass experience. The SZ2000 earpads are covered in a kind of absorbent leather, and the isolation isn't strong enough that it leaks sound--this design possibly was an attempt at minimizing room reverb, but to most of the owners that was a mistake.

 

Can room reverb be corrected with audio signal processing? Perhaps, I've seen a few solutions already, but they aren't widely used. There IS a method called convolution, which takes the impulse response of a room (the room reverb of an actual room or inside a headphone can), and "convolves" any audio signal using that impulse response to simulate how that signal sounds like in that room. In Foobar2000, you can get the Convolver plug-in and use the impulse response of a basshead headphone to enhance your bass experience. EQ can't do this. Now, if you want the other way around, such as recording the impulse response of a room, and creating an inverse filter function to counter its effects, it is called deconvolution and you can find some solutions in Google, but I personally haven't tried them.

 

One irony with people averse to audio processing of any kind is that the volume control itself is a form of audio processing. Increasing the gain of all the signals equally, with little distortion, either requires amplification of that signal to add gain, or an attenuator that decreases resistance if you want to increase volume. My simple point is: Don't be afraid to use tools.

 

Again, the SZ2000 can reach 125dB at 30Hz peak freq. in my testing, and that is currently the world record in headphones (if you want to challenge this claim, bring your own measurements to the Extreme Bass Club). To say that the SZ lacks bass because you don''t know how to EQ properly only says something about how you don't know how to EQ properly (:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD View Post
 

They aren't bassy unEQ'd, in fact I find it suprisingly NOT bassy for a bass marketed headphone. There's headphones out there with +15dB boost to go. Should be a disclaimer that these are BASS capable and can take a lot of it and go loud before distorting but in the default package, it's not overly bassy at all.

 



The lower midrange boost is also the reason for muddiness, definitely needs some lowering in the 200 - 1kHz range.
 

 

 

As we discussed in the Extreme Bass Club yesterday, the SZs look obviously underdamped in those measurements. High output impedance (greater than 1/8 the headphone impedance) will underdamp bass--but I couldn't find any specs on the "Golden Ears Headphone Amplifier" they used. That site certainly knows their stuff as they've written a thorough article regarding impedance mismatch, and in the same article I found a list of amplifiers with their corresponding output impedances, but nothing about this "Golden Ears Headphone Amplifier."

 

I have with me the Sennheiser HD439, which sounds lacking in the 100Hz-below range at normal volume compared to the SZ with everything flat. Golden Ears measured the HD439 as such:

 

ce8d89cc7f965456e2300d0944a314e1.png

 

This is a bit suspect. I trust dummy-head HRTF measurements more than subjective reviews, but this simply doesn't add up. Regardless, nobody can say that we of the extreme bass crew didn't recommend EQ enough. And as I reasoned above, stock FR, excessive room reverberations aside, is meaningless to EQ and audio processing enthusiasts.

post #1181 of 3524

@PocketSmiley thx for that detailed explanation. This is my EQ  

But it cant reach the 7 hz as you mentioned. Is there any better? I use an iMac btw

post #1182 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummel View Post

@ hawaiibadboy I think you dont fully understand what I mean. I use my fiio e17 with these settings: gain +12. bass +10. treble -2 and volume max +24. This is the max volume that I can handle before my ears start ringing after a while.

This is both unsafe and unwise, but it's your ears.

Friends used to give me endless criticism for wearing earplugs nearly all the time when I was in my late teens 20's and 30's. I worked pro sound 30 hours a week.

Move forward 30 years and my hearing, whilst not perfect, is far better than every other DJ i know and everyone else from that industry.

Your hearing will not be as good as mine at age 55 and I cannot hear beyond 13500hZ.

I can almost guarantee you are giving yourself early onset tinnitus.
post #1183 of 3524
Quote:
Originally Posted by marone View Post

This is both unsafe and unwise, but it's your ears.

Friends used to give me endless criticism for wearing earplugs nearly all the time when I was in my late teens 20's and 30's. I worked pro sound 30 hours a week.

Move forward 30 years and my hearing, whilst not perfect, is far better than every other DJ i know and everyone else from that industry.

Your hearing will not be as good as mine at age 55 and I cannot hear beyond 13500hZ.

I can almost guarantee you are giving yourself early onset tinnitus.


Listen to this man! I'm often pretty shocked at reading at what kind of levels people are listening at, especially those "boasting" about it, that's just crazy and sad. If you want lots of bass for example then you should EQ/bass boost so you don't end up turning up the volume at which the mids and highs will also be at ear raping levels. Bass isn't playing constantly, it usually has breaks in-between etc but mids and highs are usually pretty constant through the track, also one thing to thinker about why loud bass listening is safer than loud mids & highs.


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 6/27/14 at 4:05pm
post #1184 of 3524

I concede that loud listening is dangerous. And that I'm definitely crazy d:

 

Right now, using these 20Hz-20KHz hearing test tones, I can hear all of them just fine (I'll check for higher frequencies later). My ears do ring after a day of extreme listening, but it is nothing intrusive and subsides days later. I also do raise the lower frequencies by +30dB, which essentially lowers the more sensitive frequencies by -30dB. I am still researching about low frequency hearing loss, but most of the cases available were hereditary. There are so many threads in car audio forums about low frequency hearing loss, some of the more informative ones are this and this, and many are perplexed as to how extreme bassheads keep their hearing. One scary, but possible theory is that we are already deaf to the low frequencies, and what we perceive as "auditory" is but tactile bone conduction.

 

Obviously, it's a mix of youthful recklessness and blind optimism (in future medicine--even if current stem cell research on hearing therapy still has problems differentiating stem cells into hair cells and not other cells). Overwhelmingly, it is about my passion for loud music. It is about flooding your consciousness with an auditory experience so extreme as to detach your mind from the rest of external reality and enable you to live a song.

 

In a signal reproduction perspective, it is also important to me for transducers to be capable of accurate reproduction at high gain. Using the hearing loss argument is just an excuse. "We didn't design the headphones to be able to reproduce a front row rock concert experience because it's bad for you."--even if this was a sincere concern for my health, and not a lame rationalization of incompetent engineering, one should still respect the end user's agency. There may be laws that enforce a volume limit in DAPs, but I have yet to hear about a law that limits headphone design in particular.

 

High bass SPL is a real need--maybe bassheads are a minority in the headphone world (despite the Beats marketing revolution), but in car audio we are ubiquitous (there are international authorities for SPL competitions, for example). Yes, boasting is the name of the game, but it is the kind of arrogance that is warranted by a straightforward, objective measurement: maximum bass SPL before distortion. But unlike in car audio, where a proper setup is attributed to the skill (and money) of the owner, in headphones all the credit goes to the headphone designers.

post #1185 of 3524

lol try out Believe me by Lil wayne, drake on these phones. Insane rumbling by the woofers. I found an album on spotify that really shows what these phones are capable off. Hip hop monsters


Edited by hummel - 6/28/14 at 12:17pm
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