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Better cables = better sound? - Page 5

post #61 of 108

Ok, here's the new URL for the "Yet Another Snag in Cable Challenge" that I'd linked to in my first post in the thread I started on the JREF forum:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/103-yet-another-snag-in-cable-challenge.html

 

That and this, "Blake Withdraws from PEAR Cable Challenge" is really all anyone needs to see Randi's blatant duplicity in all its glory:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/102-blake-withdrawls-from-pear-cable-challenge.html

 

In the "Snag" post, Randi sates:

 

Quote:
No, Fremer. You told me you’d like to use your “reference” cable, but the test is as I very clearly stated, more than once:
 
…to significantly differentiate between a set of $7,250 Pear Anjou cables and a good set of Monster cables, or between a set of $43,000 Transparent Opus MM SC cables and the same Monster cables – your choice of these two possible scenarios… This would have to be done to a statistically significant degree, that degree to be decided.

 

First, Randi conveniently leaves out the fact that he told Fremer that he would prefer he use his own TARA Labs cables for the sake of simplicity, but that he would first have to consult with his advisers.

 

However even if we disregard this, please note that the challenge, as Randi himself explicitly states it includes "or between a set of $43,000 Transparent Opus MM SC cables..." (it was Randi himself who included that cable by the way).

 

Now have a look at the "Blake Witdhraws" piece where Randi says:

 

Quote:
Third – and most interesting – this retreat by Adam Blake effectively closes the current challenge, much to the relief of both Fremer and Blake, of course.

 

Why? Why should Blake withdrawing his offer to provide some PEAR cables close the current challenge? Again, disregarding Fremer using his own cables, the challenge included TWO cables, the PEAR and the Transparents. And it was specifically stated that it wasn't the PEAR AND the Transparents, but the PEAR OR the Transparents.

 

Then Randi includes the sleazy comment, "Actually, I must admit that this was a rather clever way of squirming out of the huge dilemma in which these two blowhards found themselves."

 

Fremer didn't do any squirming. It was Randi who did the squirming by underhandedly pulling the rug out from under Fremer and declaring the challenge closed simply because PEAR had withdrawn their offer to supply cables even though the Transparent cables were still on the table at the time. And in reality, Fremer's cables were still on the table at the time because at the time Randi pulled the rug out from under him, he had not yet consulted with his advisers on that matter.

 

Later Randi says:

 

Quote:
Well, Adam, since you won’t provide a set of your marvelous cables for the test, and I’m sure that Fremer isn’t going to provide them, that closes the matter. Now, Fremer may decide to invest $7,250 in a set of these cables. Or, the Transparent people may send in a set of $42,000 wires for the test, but I’m damn sure not going to supply them…!

 

Yet Randi never allowed for those possibilities. He had already declared the challenge closed and began looking at others who had expressed an interest in taking the challenge.

 

What Randi did to Fremer was downright sleazy and inexcusable. Randi simply took advantage of PEAR's backing out to pound his dick on the table and declare victory to the cheers of his obsequious little sycophants.

 

se


Edited by Steve Eddy - 4/25/13 at 2:41pm
post #62 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

Ok, here's the new URL for the "Yet Another Snag in Cable Challenge" that I'd linked to in my first post in the thread I started on the JREF forum:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/103-yet-another-snag-in-cable-challenge.html

 

That and this, "Blake Withdraws from PEAR Cable Challenge" is really all anyone needs to see Randi's blatant duplicity in all its glory:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/102-blake-withdrawls-from-pear-cable-challenge.html

 

In the "Snag" post, Randi sates:

 

 

First, Randi conveniently leaves out the fact that he told Fremer that he would prefer he use his own TARA Labs cables for the sake of simplicity, but that he would first have to consult with his advisers.

 

However even if we disregard this, please note that the challenge, as Randi himself explicitly states it includes "or between a set of $43,000 Transparent Opus MM SC cables..." (it was Randi himself who included that cable by the way).

 

Now have a look at the "Blake Witdhraws" piece where Randi says:

 

 

Why? Why should Blake withdrawing his offer to provide some PEAR cables close the current challenge? Again, disregarding Fremer using his own cables, the challenge included TWO cables, the PEAR and the Transparents. And it was specifically stated that it wasn't the PEAR AND the Transparents, but the PEAR OR the Transparents.

 

Then Randi includes the sleazy comment, "Actually, I must admit that this was a rather clever way of squirming out of the huge dilemma in which these two blowhards found themselves."

 

Fremer didn't do any squirming. It was Randi who did the squirming by underhandedly pulling the rug out from under Fremer and declaring the challenge closed simply because PEAR had withdrawn their offer to supply cables even though the Transparent cables were still on the table at the time. And in reality, Fremer's cables were still on the table at the time because at the time Randi pulled the rug out from under him, he had not yet consulted with his advisers on that matter.

 

Later Randi says:

 

 

Yet Randi never allowed for those possibilities. He had already declared the challenge closed and began looking at others who had expressed an interest in taking the challenge.

 

What Randi did to Fremer was downright sleazy and inexcusable. Randi simply took advantage of PEAR's backing out to pound his dick on the table and declare victory to the cheers of his obsequious little sycophants.

 

se

 

Honestly, what this seems like to me is that both sides made a lot of presumptions and it's more a big understanding that anything else.

 

I'm sure that Randi got the impression that Pear and Fremer were working together, and when Pear pulled out, it was implicit that Fremer was backing out. I'm not sure how or why he might've gotten that impression, but that could be an honest mistake or maybe there's more we don't know. Conversely, he might have Fremer caught by surprise, and considering the hostile language and insults traded by both sides, it seems to have blown up.

 

I get the feeling that if Fremer emailed and said, "Hey, I still want to do the challenge. Please retract your inflammatory comments," things might have turned out different, but it seems that both sides are so butthurt over the whole thing and too proud/stubborn to apologize and reconcile. Instead of communication with each other to resolve the confusion, they both decided instead to publicly take to the pulpit and preach to their respective choirs.


Edited by tintin220 - 4/25/13 at 2:54pm
post #63 of 108

There was communication between the two. During that communication, Fremer had suggested three options, one of which was that he use his own cables. Randi told him that he would prefer going that route for the sake of simplicity, but that he would have to talk to his advisers first. And it's important to understand that that is where things stood when Randi wrote his "Blake Withdraws..." piece, calling Fremer a blowhard and how he had cleverly squirmed out of a huge dilemma.

 

I'll be the first to agree that Fremer sometimes lets his temper get the better of him, but that doesn't excuse the sleazy and underhanded stunt that Randi pulled when he prematurely pulled the rug out from under Fremer. It's clear that Randi was more interested in showing off than being fair and I find that disgusting and inexcusable. And again, I come at this from the perspective of someone who before this incident, had nothing but respect and admiration for the man.

 

se

post #64 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

There was communication between the two. During that communication, Fremer had suggested three options, one of which was that he use his own cables. Randi told him that he would prefer going that route for the sake of simplicity, but that he would have to talk to his advisers first. And it's important to understand that that is where things stood when Randi wrote his "Blake Withdraws..." piece, calling Fremer a blowhard and how he had cleverly squirmed out of a huge dilemma.

 

I meant communication after Pear withdrew. It seems like Randi jumped the gun and made a false assumption about Fremer (or something else we don't know about set off an alarm?), and then went and posted about Pear withdrawing, to which then Fremer responded accusing him of being a "lying sack of [manure]".

 

Two grown men with big egos hurling insults at each other doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me. 

 

 

 

Quote:

I'll be the first to agree that Fremer sometimes lets his temper get the better of him, but that doesn't excuse the sleazy and underhanded stunt that Randi pulled when he prematurely pulled the rug out from under Fremer. It's clear that Randi was more interested in showing off than being fair and I find that disgusting and inexcusable. And again, I come at this from the perspective of someone who before this incident, had nothing but respect and admiration for the man.

 

se

 

See, I'm not sure it was a stunt by Randi. It seems to me, since I have no horse in this race, that Randi wasn't trying to show off or anything, but that when Pear withdrew, he assumed Fremer had decided not to do the stunt or was trying to change his stance. While Fremer may not have been doing so, operating under the assumption he might be allowed to use his own cables, Randi never actually told him he could for sure as it was pending his advisors (so far as I could gather). I really see this more as a misunderstanding exacerbated by lots of name calling and grudges.


Edited by tintin220 - 4/25/13 at 3:16pm
post #65 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tintin220 View Post
See, I'm not sure it was a stunt by Randi. It seems to me, since I have no horse in this race, that Randi wasn't trying to show off or anything, but that when Pear withdrew, he assumed Fremer had decided not to do the stunt or was trying to change his stance. I really see this more as a misunderstanding exacerbated by lots of name calling and grudges.

 

Since Fremer was suggesting using his own cables for the test, AND since there was still ANOTHER CABLE on the table (the Transparents that Randi himself had included), how could Randi possibly assume that Fremer had decided not to do the test simply because PEAR had pulled out?

 

Quote:
While Fremer may not have been doing so, operating under the assumption he might be allowed to use his own cables, Randi never actually told him he could for sure as it was pending his advisors (so far as I could gather).

 

But again that's overlooking the Transparent cables that Randi himself put forth.

 

And it's worth repeating the three options that Fremer had put to Randi:

 

Quote:
Since I have not heard either the Pear Anjou or the Transparent Opus, and since I don't necessarily think that "expensive equals better," there are three options:

1) I request a set of Pear Anjou cables to hear what they sound like and then decide whether i can hear the difference between them and whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

2) request a pair of Transparent Orpheus cables to hear what they sound like and then decide whether i can hear the difference between them and whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

3) have you sign off on okaying me to use my reference TARA Labs Omega cables ($16,000 pr.) versus whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

Once this is clarified we will take it the next step and I will state clearly what abilities I intend to demonstrate.

 

Given these three clearly stated options, how could Randi possibly assume that Fremer would back out just because PEAR withdrew their offer?

 

Sorry, but I'm not seeing any misunderstanding here, but rather a deliberate attempt on Randi's part to impugn both PEAR and Fermer, using PEAR's withdrawal as his cover.

 

se

post #66 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

 

Since Fremer was suggesting using his own cables for the test, AND since there was still ANOTHER CABLE on the table (the Transparents that Randi himself had included), how could Randi possibly assume that Fremer had decided not to do the test simply because PEAR had pulled out?

 

 

But again that's overlooking the Transparent cables that Randi himself put forth.

 

And it's worth repeating the three options that Fremer had put to Randi:

 

 

Given these three clearly stated options, how could Randi possibly assume that Fremer would back out just because PEAR withdrew their offer?

 

Sorry, but I'm not seeing any misunderstanding here, but rather a deliberate attempt on Randi's part to impugn both PEAR and Fermer, using PEAR's withdrawal as his cover.

 

se

 

Why not? If Rando thought that Fremer and signed on to test the Pear cable and just that cable, if the Pear cable withdrew, I could see within reason Randi having a misunderstanding and determining the test was off. Randi is to blame for precipitating the events that followed by posting about how Pear had quit in a condescending and dismissive way. 

 

However, what if Fremer had then emailed him and said, "Yo, I still want to do the test, let's figure out the details. Please remove the disparaging comments from your post that are incorrect." Who knows what would have happened? Instead, from what I have read, Fremer, and I'm not surprised at this because I might well have done the same, sent an email filled with insults and saying he hadn't quit and was willing to use his own cables. Regarding this latter point and what you mention above, I haven't read anywhere that Randi agreed to let him test this cables, just that it was a potential possibility and he would defer to his advisors.

 

With regard to the Transparent cables, it's not clear to me that Randi would've said no had Fremer replied and asked/agreed to test those, but instead, he only said he wanted to test his own. I haven't read anywhere that Fremer said he wanted to test those. 

 

I don't want to sound like a Randi fan. I didn't even know who he was before this. And I think it's obvious both parties have an ulterior motive to discredit the other and to advocate for their respective views on cables (difference vs no difference). Plus, maybe Randi did do exactly like you said and set up the whole thing to make Fremer and Pear look bad. To me though, that's inconclusive. I guess the way I look at it, while other cables were on the table, no one had agreed to test those, and it's not outside of reason for Randi to assume the test was off when Pear withdrew since they had not firmly discussed testing any other cables like the Transparent or giving a definitive OK on Fremer's own. Cue the angry rants on both sides, and here we are.

post #67 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Rez View Post

Randi has very tight restrictions on his offer.  It is only to compare two specific cables - a good set of Monster and the Pear Anjou cables.  No other cables need apply....

 

From his Website - http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/104-the-latest-on-pear-challenge-refusal.html:  

 

 

"(7) Why is James Randi attempting to limit his thesis regarding audio cables to 2 specific models?

Why? Because those are the cables I’m questioning, dodo! I’ve clearly stated that speaker cables can vary widely due to resistance, impedance, orientation, insulation, spacing, configuration, etc., etc. Are you now suggesting that Pear cables can’t qualify for his golden ears…?

If you read the entire link in my previous post, it seems pretty clear that Randi pretty much changes his offer by ruling out any cables other than the Pear Anjou.  Essentially killing any testing with other high end cables.  Hard to see how Fremer caused the test not to happen.

post #68 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tintin220 View Post

 

Why not? If Rando thought that Fremer and signed on to test the Pear cable and just that cable, if the Pear cable withdrew, I could see within reason Randi having a misunderstanding and determining the test was off.

 

Why on earth would Randi think that when Fremer clearly laid out three options? And remember, Randi responded to those three options saying he preferred option 3.

 

Quote:
With regard to the Transparent cables, it's not clear to me that Randi would've said no had Fremer replied and asked/agreed to test those, but instead, he only said he wanted to test his own.

 

Fremer DID NOT say he ONLY wanted to test his own. Again, Fremer presented Randi with 3 options:

 

Quote:
1) I request a set of Pear Anjou cables to hear what they sound like and then decide whether i can hear the difference between them and whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

2) request a pair of Transparent Orpheus cables to hear what they sound like and then decide whether i can hear the difference between them and whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

3) have you sign off on okaying me to use my reference TARA Labs Omega cables ($16,000 pr.) versus whichever set of Monster cables you identify as "good."

 

It was Randi who said he preferred option 3 for the sake of simplicity. But option 2 was Fremer requesting a pair of the Transparent cables. So even with PEAR withdrawing their option, and even if Randi had ultimately given option 3 a thumbs down, there was still option 2.

 

There's simply nothing from which Randi could have assumed that Fremer would back out just because PEAR had withdrawn their offer.

 

se

post #69 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Rez View Post

If you read the entire link in my previous post, it seems pretty clear that Randi pretty much changes his offer by ruling out any cables other than the Pear Anjou.  Essentially killing any testing with other high end cables.  Hard to see how Fremer caused the test not to happen.

 

Because of course, he didn't. Randi just wanted to put on a show.

 

se

post #70 of 108

Oh, and here's the thing I found most bizarre.

 

In the "Latest on PEAR Challenge Refusal" that Graphicism linked to, Randi says:

 

Quote:
The use of Fremer’s “reference cables” was a matter that I could not bring to the attention of my advisors due to the interference of the weekend and to the fact that on Friday I was rushed to the local emergency hospital with what turned out to be a false alarm.

 

This was Randi's excuse for pooh-poohing Fremer using his own cables (he even offers up a scan of his hospital wrist band). In other words, this is how Randi tried to cover his ass over the fact that at the time he declared the challenge closed, as he had not previously made any decision as to Fremer using his own cables.

 

The pertinent question to ask here is why couldn't Randi have simply consulted his advisers the following Monday? There were no hard deadlines involved in this. The two sides were working out the details of the test. Randi has never explained this. It seems little more than a desperate attempt by Randi to try and cover his ass for so prematurely and disingenuously declaring the challenge closed. And again it's worth noting that the Transparent cables which Randi himself put forth as an option, had not been taken off the table.

 

se

post #71 of 108

i d'ont believe cables=better sound. today i have spent more than a thousand dollars for 2 cable and i fail to hear any differences. i have put these cables on my schiit lyr. rca cables to connect my dac to the lyr and power cable for the lyr. i also tried silver cables vs copper cables on my hifiman he 6 and could not hear any differences.

 

when i roll tubes i can see quite a big difference in sound. i have gone from a GE 6BZ7 to a pair of electro harmonix 6922 , to a pair of genalex gold lion e88cc and now to a pair of Amperex 6922 PQ USA Gold Pin  white label and each time i swapped tubes the sound quality changed dare i say dramatically.

 

i hear a huge change in sound when i switch headphones and when i swap tubes or when i change of amplifiers or dac. when i change cables i hear no differences at all. maybe there is but i simply cannot hear it.

 

so for me the cable upgrade thing is over. as long as the cables are decent i will stick with them. the only huge improvement i have seen by changing cables on the lyr is that now the lyr is barely hot at all.

 

enormous quality copper cables=much less resistance=less heat produced.

 

that is the only change i have noticed and it is a change i can live with.

 

it is incredible how much colder is the lyr now. almost unbelievable.

 

the power cable is enormous. kyj audio from montreal. it cost about 300 dollars.

 

http://kyjheac.com/YPL570.html

 

rca cables are from bis audio in montreal too. they cost more than 800 dollars.

 

http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/cables/18-1_bis_audio.shtml

 

i was thinking of upgrading the headphone cable too, for my hifiman he 6, but i fail to see any reasons.

post #72 of 108

^ This reinforces some of my earlier points: Choose carefully, try before you buy, and if you're not hearing any improvement then walk away and don't worry about it. I'm surprised that you hear "huge" differences in DACs though. Usually, people who don't hear cable differences, don't hear DAC differences either - or at least say DAC differences are tiny once you've gone beyond a well designed budget model.

 

Your point about the lyr getting colder is perplexing. However much bigger the new power cord is, the difference in resistance in a few feet would be small. Probably a fraction of an ohm, assuming the stock cable was not faulty. But even if that was indeed the reason, it would be the cable that would change in temperature, not the amp. It's possible that the extra copper is acting as a better heat sink for the amp, but the effect would be marginal compared to the amp's other heat sinks and casing. One outside possibility is that there is a fault in the plug of the stock chord, which is generating excess heat. If that was the case, the plug itself would become the hottest part. So, it's just strange.

post #73 of 108

I think erikfreedom did it the wrong way around. Headphone cables, IMO, make more difference than all the others. Regardless, I wouldn't have put that much money in cables but in a much better amp and DAC instead. smile.gif

post #74 of 108

the power cable is enormous. gigantic. almost funny. 12 hours ago i did say i could not see any differences in sound but now i do. after a 12 hours listening session. sound is leaner and cleaner. but i d'ont know if i like this. sound is becoming too polite. the thing i notice the most is that the lyr is a good amp, but not that good of an amp. these cables are showing me that the amp is definitely a weak link. that is what i find frustrating in this hobby. as soon as you are upgrading something big time, you start to reveal the stuff that is weaker.

 

yes cables do make a differences, but they can reveal weak links in your setup.

 

i will eventually upgrade the hifiman cable, although i think it is a nice cable. the he 6 one. i like moon audio stuff. i might go with the black dragon cables. inexpensive cables and they look very nice. there is also toxic cables wich a lot of people here seem to like a lot.

post #75 of 108

If you're into cables sounding different, then (unfortunately) you've also got to accept the concept of burn in. Controversial etc, but it's how it is IMO.

I'm not saying that's exactly what you're experiencing, just that it might be.

 

The acid test is to go back to the old ones after you've spent plenty of time with the new ones. Allow at least a week.

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