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Bi-wiring Bi Amp`ing Monitor Audio RS8 Nad C352 - Page 2

post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

Thanks for good info. I hope not only me is so poor knowledge.  :)

 

Answer to this treat, becouse i`m confused now.. :)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/443721/output-impedance-questions-and-headphones

 

I just read my PDF manual; you were right about the 220ohm output impedance on the headphone amp. I thought that was just the preamp - no wonder it sucked that much with my SR225  tongue.gif

post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

I just read my PDF manual; you were right about the 220ohm output impedance on the headphone amp. I thought that was just the preamp - no wonder it sucked that much with my SR225  tongue.gif
what you mean "sucked" with sr225? So you saying you DONT need high impedance amp to drive headphones with 32ohms and less? I do know that 32 ohms headphones is easy to drive, but amp would improve the sound, is it? Or how does it work? Can you or someone explain how it works? What about 600ohms headphone amps + 32 ohms headphones, its just waste or its affect the sound negative. Please explain in simple terms. Thanks.
Edited by Artcheezzz - 3/13/13 at 7:01pm
post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 

BTW who is more familiar with PC as a source >>> amp >>> speakers/ headphones?

I just tried to run my setup from Sansa clip+ or phone, and its (as i was expected) 4 times less louder than from PC. 

So what PC sound card does? Because i`m more than sure if i run my speakers at volume 100% i will damage them and amp also. Ok, i know that "normal" settings for volume in my case would be 100% PC volume and 25% amp same volume as you would get from any CD Player or non PC source.

So my question is:

How does that affect my amp, speakers and "sound stage" (maybe even PC sound card?) if i`m increasing volume up to 50%?

Or will bi-amping will take the load from the amp`s?

 

Still didn`t tested bi-amping, cant!! No time, when have time, some one damn sleeping ATMM.

post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post


what you mean "sucked" with sr225? So you saying you DONT need high impedance amp to drive headphones with 32ohms and less? I do know that 32 ohms headphones is easy to drive, but amp would improve the sound, is it? Or how does it work? Can you or someone explain how it works? What about 600ohms headphone amps + 32 ohms headphones, its just waste or its affect the sound negative. Please explain in simple terms. Thanks.

 

From the Head-Fi audio glossary

 

Impedance - electrical resistance to the flow of current in an AC circuit (for example, an audio circuit).  The higher the impedance of the headphone, the less current will flow thru it. Impedance can vary with frequency in most circuits, including audio circuits. Impedance is comprised of the basic elements of all electrical circuits: inductance (abbreviated by "L"), capacitance (abbreviated by "C") and resistance ("R").  

Additional reading: http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance

 

Impedance mis-match - Where efficiency and damping factor are lessened and frequency response may be altered due to incompatible source and load impedances. Normally in audio circuits source impedance (i.e. output impedance) should be relativity low, load impedance (i.e. headphone impedance) should be relatively high. As a rule of thumb, headphone impedance should be 8 or more times higher than output impedance. True impedance matching has more relevance in RF circuits and digital transmission circuits.

 

---

 

So basically a 220ohm output impedance amp might be alright for the 600ohm headphone but probably not for the 32ohm headphone. In the case of my NAD304 and SR225, the sound was too tinny and actually ear-piercing, even for a colored headphone like Grado's Prestige series. I have no real complaints about it on the HD600 though, considering it's not a dedicated headphone amp, other than it can't get loud enough to make me hear my music well over a party next door (but then again if I do that often enough I'd be deaf in a few years).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

BTW who is more familiar with PC as a source >>> amp >>> speakers/ headphones?

I just tried to run my setup from Sansa clip+ or phone, and its (as i was expected) 4 times less louder than from PC. 

So what PC sound card does? Because i`m more than sure if i run my speakers at volume 100% i will damage them and amp also. Ok, i know that "normal" settings for volume in my case would be 100% PC volume and 25% amp same volume as you would get from any CD Player or non PC source.

So my question is:

How does that affect my amp, speakers and "sound stage" (maybe even PC sound card?) if i`m increasing volume up to 50%?

Or will bi-amping will take the load from the amp`s?

 

If your Windows system volume is below 100%, you are listening to less than 16-bits - unless you have some software that basically uses the Windows volume control as a digital control for a hardware preamp on the soundcard (I'm not really sure if there are any that do that; usually there's a separate software, maybe a widget on the desktop, that does this).

 

Also, if your phone and Clip are louder, keep in mind the outputs on those are meant to drive earphones, not feed a signal into an amp. So if the typical CDP or DAC has anywhere between 1.8v to 2.25v, and earphone output might have a bit more than that, even if it's on a mobile device and not a dedicated amp, which is exacerbated by setting the Windows level below 100%.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

 

Still didn`t tested bi-amping, cant!! No time, when have time, some one damn sleeping ATMM.

 

I'd put the bi-amping at the end of the list of priorities for now; let's start with Windows volume, then maybe get the DACMagic back, and then try bi-amping if it works.

post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 

I'd put the bi-amping at the end of the list of priorities for now; let's start with Windows volume, then maybe get the DACMagic back, and then try bi-amping if it works.

Followed your suggestion - to try DacMagic Plus again. And i did.  Only headphone this time again. I live at night time, so its difficult to to test MA RS8. 

 

This time completely relaxed, clear head and positive attitude :)

But this time i didnt listen my electronic(Friskyradio.com ; Pure.FM ) or chillout music. I found songs which i do like too but don`t listen too often.

P.S. i like music, not songs. lol :) (i guess that`s because of the radio at work and everywhere else which i HAVE to listen every day 8-10 hours of crap quality/ crap music)

 

My choice was slow, very vocal, and deep sounding songs. Because might me i`m not as good as "audiophile", and need time while my brain will be able to see the difference.

 

So after i make A/B testing at 100% sound card volume and 25% amp volume, 24bit 48khz (yes not 192, i like 48):

 

Xonar d2x >>> optical >>> DacMagic Plus (100%volume)>>> Nad c352 >>> headphone output  >>> HD650

Xonar d2x >>> 3.5mm to rca >>> Nad c352 >>> headphone output  >>> HD650   (default settings)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yasmin - '5 Minutes'

 

 

 

Kelly Sweet - We Are One

 

 

And can say WOW...  That was such a nice feeling this time to spot such a small but so enjoyable difference. I as running again and again, and more songs, and YES, DacMagic Plus make music dance. 

NAD c352 via sound card sound very good to, don`t get me wrong. Surprisingly good.

But the DacMagic just filled it with realistic, deeper, more clear, acoustical, not a flat and just better sound.  

I thought i do have advantage via sound card and huge options of "equalising" sound and i can get something closer to DAC sound, but NO.. You cant do that. Its possible to do a very different sound, but not that natural and good. 

Is that worth £350? Hmmm...not sure, i didn`t tried others Dac`s. But probably my story with DAC`s starts here.

(i tried fiio E9, but via other PC, which means different sound, cant compare)

 

So that`s only my impression about DacMagic Plus, with headphone listening experience.


Edited by Artcheezzz - 3/14/13 at 7:17pm
post #21 of 26

TLDR; Hopefully this helps...

 

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/assets/files/manuals/silver-rs.manual.pdf

page 13,14.

 

sorry if its useless...

post #22 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:

So basically a 220ohm output impedance amp might be alright for the 600ohm headphone but probably not for the 32ohm headphone. In the case of my NAD304 and SR225, the sound was too tinny and actually ear-piercing, even for a colored headphone like Grado's Prestige series. I have no real complaints about it on the HD600 though, considering it's not a dedicated headphone amp, other than it can't get loud enough to make me hear my music well over a party next door (but then again if I do that often enough I'd be deaf in a few years).

OK my friend have Fiio E9 amp, which  has 43 ohm output impedance on the 3.5mm jack, and 10 ohm output impedance on the 6.5mm jack 

And he have denon ah-d 1100 which is 32 ohms. 

 

So in his case he should not use THIS headphone amp at all? To get better quality sound out of headphones? Sorry i shouldn`t make a new threat in threat, but that`s just a quick question. 

Will report all my experience of bi-amping soon.

Have loads of possible test:

 

Built-in in PC vs Xonar dx2 vs  >>> optical vs 3.5mm  >>> fiio vs magic >>> amp vs x2 amp  >>> monitor audio rs8 vs Focal 714s >>> HD650 vs D600.

 

Too much ito do in one weekend :D


Edited by Artcheezzz - 3/14/13 at 7:44pm
post #23 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnman1116 View Post

TLDR; Hopefully this helps...

 

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/assets/files/manuals/silver-rs.manual.pdf

page 13,14.

 

sorry if its useless...

No that`s really helpful, that`s first thing what i had to do :) Thanks.  

 

 

"If you are going to be connecting your speakers in a bi-wire, or bi amp format,
please remove the terminal links (is that some piece palstic in the middle of connection?).
o this by unscrewing the red and black
terminals slightly and removing the link. Connect the speaker as in the
illustrations on page 14.
You can also bi-amp your loudspeakers. This is carried out in the same way as
bi-wiring except instead of using one amplifier to power all of the drive
units/tweeter in the speaker; you are using one amplifier to drive the treble
(tweeter) and the other amplifier to drive the mid/bass sections. If you are
intending to do this, please consult your local hi-fi dealer for their
recommendations for amplifier rating." 
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

Followed your suggestion - to try DacMagic Plus again. And i did.  Only headphone this time again. I live at night time, so its difficult to to test MA RS8. 

 

And can say WOW...  That was such a nice feeling this time to spot such a small but so enjoyable difference. I as running again and again, and more songs, and YES, DacMagic Plus make music dance. 

NAD c352 via sound card sound very good to, don`t get me wrong. Surprisingly good.

But the DacMagic just filled it with realistic, deeper, more clear, acoustical, not a flat and just better sound.  

I thought i do have advantage via sound card and huge options of "equalising" sound and i can get something closer to DAC sound, but NO.. You cant do that. Its possible to do a very different sound, but not that natural and good. 

Is that worth £350? Hmmm...not sure, i didn`t tried others Dac`s. But probably my story with DAC`s starts here.

(i tried fiio E9, but via other PC, which means different sound, cant compare)

 

So that`s only my impression about DacMagic Plus, with headphone listening experience.

 

The thing with better sources and amps is that while in some cases there actually are "audiophile" products that are deliberately colored (too biased on the midrange, for example) most of them deliver what is generally referred to as "speed" or "musicality." I'm not sure about the technical explanations for that, but I think better power capacitors with faster slew rate are one factor (take note this doesn't mean $$$$$ capacitors). Try listening to Feists' "One Evening" (preferably off the Focal demo discs, # 6, or her original CD) - that song sounds "slow" on some systems. On some systems that it sounds "fast," sometimes its just a small standmount that wasn't designed to even try reproducing enough low freqs, but if it was deliberately tuned to attempt that, the bass is likely to sound a bit more like a mudslide than a beat.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

OK my friend have Fiio E9 amp, which  has 43 ohm output impedance on the 3.5mm jack, and 10 ohm output impedance on the 6.5mm jack 

And he have denon ah-d 1100 which is 32 ohms. 

 

So in his case he should not use THIS headphone amp at all? To get better quality sound out of headphones? Sorry i shouldn`t make a new threat in threat, but that`s just a quick question. 

 

Not necessarily - many vintage amps have a 120ohm output impedance, and if you already have one and size isn't an issue, then just use it, if at least for the time being. In your friend's case, he already has the E9, plus the cheapest low-output impedance Class A solid state amp I'm aware of is the Schiit Asgard (and used to be the Gilmore Lite), so if he doesn't have the budget for that I suggest sticking to the E9. If he wants to upgrade later then that's probably good, but do keep in mind there are a few people who liked the E9 better than the Asgard for some headphones, but personally I'm a Class A (or Class A-biased) SS amp kind of guy.

post #25 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

Try listening to Feists' "One Evening" (preferably off the Focal demo discs, # 6, or her original CD) - that song sounds "slow" on some systems. On some systems that it sounds "fast," 

 

Just tried to listen on youtube, yes i guess i know what you mean. Very temperamental song :) I will download FLAC quality, will try than, i`m  "master" of getting songs for free :)) 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

In your friend's case, he already has the E9, plus the cheapest low-output impedance Class A solid state amp I'm aware of is the Schiit Asgard (and used to be the Gilmore Lite)

 

 

Heh, just wanted to make a new threat about Schiit Audio, is that "brand" is good. Their products is not too expensive, and probably isn`t too bad?

My friend would like class A, he`s a car audio maniac, so have to like class A :D  But i guess i will try Schiit Asgard :)


Edited by Artcheezzz - 3/14/13 at 8:34pm
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

 

Just tried to listen on youtube, yes i guess i know what you mean. Very temperamental song :) I will download FLAC quality, will try than, i`m  "master" of getting songs for free :)) 

 

 

There are other tracks actually but that's the one that I know of that immediately reveals any "slowness" or even just a little bit too much bass in a song. One time I got a cheap tube amp - some obscure Chinese brand, huge and it came in a pro-audio rack-mount style chassis - and at first listen I thought it was crap because it was "slow" compared to a NAD304 I had (BTW it was feeding a 1980's Technis Dual Mono Class A amp). I opened it up thinking I should get new tubes, but I found some "huh?" ceramic caps inside. Was planning to get just Nichicons for it but the dealer had some older stock Mundorfs on the cheap (got them for about $25 for the set of four) so I got those, same values but a bit bigger. One I got home the sound was absolutely clear, fast, and the notes had more "groove" to them (strong attack, a little bloom, then quick but gradual decay - it doesn't suddenly stop but you can hear the trailing end of the note just before the next one hits). Unfortunately when I entered grad school I had to sell a few stuff when I moved into a smaller apartment, and I chose to stick with the NAD. At least this one sounds "right" (if a bit two dimensional) without any upgrades or stacking too many components.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

Heh, just wanted to make a new thread about Schiit Audio, is that "brand" is good. Their products is not too expensive, and probably isn`t too bad?

 

Their products are actually good for the money, generally. I mean all things being relative, there will always be people who for example would rather spend another hundred bucks on a Gilmore Lite (if they can find one), plus a new PSU for it too.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artcheezzz View Post

My friend would like class A, he`s a car audio maniac, so have to like class A :D  But i guess i will try Schiit Asgard :)

 

     Well, technically nowadays, car audio people would be all over Class D - more compact, barely produces heat (so it gives you a lot of stealthier or more practical install options), plus they aren't going to draw as much power out of your deep cycle batteries for the same stated power output. Of course some people would prefer the harmonic distortion of some older Class A/B amps, which is that some of them do it like tubes.

 

A better way to determine what headphone he might like is to see which ones sound close to his speakers, if properly set up aside for EQ, and then choose an amp from there. If he's already got one then just see which amps are said to go well with it, but also what it sounds like with a certain amp (ie, some might really push for a cheaper amp waaaay more than even a slightly more expensive one, but the cheaper amp is doing more than amplifiying the signal, etc).

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