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Tascam TH-02 - Headphones waiting to be discovered??? (now Appreciation Thread) - Page 8

post #106 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Minimum phase filters found in EQs are trivial. (So are linear phase filters, but they can be problematic if used in an EQ.)

Math; analyzing the filter. Or if you want it simpler: filter the input with a boost, followed by a cut with same gain and Q => the output equals the original input.
Since those filters usually operate with at least 32-bit floating point they can be considered lossless.

Sorry too in depth for me, but if it's complicated enough to only be "considered" lossless, then I stand by my comment. Like I said I have no problem with a good EQ and use it. I'm not denouncing it. I just want to make a point against it being flawless. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_WJ View Post

Your argument basically applies to any digital audio engineering. I would not listen to any CDs if I did not trust the technology and algorithms it employs. Digital recording and signal processing is a mature field and all basic algorithms are already mapped out. Minimum phase filtering such as peak, low/high shelf ones that are commonly used in EQ is very basic. As long as it is properly implemented, it is not something you can rebut with your thought process. One thing you may want to look at is measurements of digital EQ performance. Dig up. You will find some over the internet. I remember I saw measurements of Eletri-Q's performance. It turned out very good.

I would listen anyway. It is what it is and this is where we are in terms of music consumption. Very good or trivial and perfect is not the same. Like I said, it's not even about the sound, it was just your statement. I use EQ and think it's fine.
post #107 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawaiiancerveza View Post

I just got the MX2.
Are these more detailed?
post #108 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwinter View Post

Very good or trivial and perfect is not the same.

 

I think you misinterpreted. xnor or I did not use the word ("trivial" or "very good") to mean that the technology is compromised. We simply do not want to use the word "perfect" since there is no perfect thing under the sun. If you listen to digital recording, there is no reason to say digital EQ is problematic unless it is implemented improperly, which is sadly the case of many graphical EQs. That's why I only use parametric EQ implemented by people who know what they are doing.


Edited by Jay_WJ - 11/6/13 at 6:28pm
post #109 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_WJ View Post
 

 

Not a good seal means that you don't hear the TH02's bass as it is supposed to sound. Would you compare these two headphones with proper seals (e.g., by slightly pressing the TH02's ear cups)? I think that will give us a better comparison result.

Yes, I lose seal when I turn to the right or left.  When facing straight I do not encounter this problem.  The pads are 1/2's inches thick and round.  If I press on the sides the bass is not lost.  

 

 With the MX2, I do not encounter this problem.  They are 3/4's an inch thick and oval.

 


Edited by Hawaiiancerveza - 11/6/13 at 6:33pm
post #110 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_WJ View Post

I think you misinterpreted. xnor or I did not use the word ("trivial" or "very good") to mean that the technology is compromised. We simply do not want to use the word "perfect" since there is no perfect thing under the sun. If you listen to digital recording, there is no reason to say digital EQ is problematic unless it is implemented improperly, which is sadly the case of many graphical EQs. That's why I only use parametric EQ implemented by people who know what they are doing.

I'm not even sure why I was trying to make my point anymore, haha, but I agree with you. It's not problematic. And I appreciate you being reasonable, for the record.

Are any of the good parametric EQ's open source btw?
post #111 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwinter View Post


I'm not even sure why I was trying to make my point anymore, haha, but I agree with you. It's not problematic. And I appreciate you being reasonable, for the record.

Are any of the good parametric EQ's open source btw?

 

See below:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/649389/a-free-parametric-equalizer-for-windows-vista-7-and-8-that-doesnt-need-asio-or-vst-it-works-inline-at-the-os-level

 

http://www.gersic.com/plugins/index.php?daCat=8

 

http://freeverb3.sourceforge.net/iir_filter.shtml

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Digital+Filters

 

Just a note. EQ is not a magic. You do not want to EQ too much: For example, boost +10 dB at a frequency, cut -15 dB at another and so on. You will end up losing bit depths with this approach. This is why, with EQ'ing in mind, we want to choose headphones that satisfy the following requirements:

 

1) Measurements are available

2) Frequency response (i.e., linear distortion) can be corrected with minimal EQ'ing

3) Nonlinear distortions are adequately low across all frequencies


Edited by Jay_WJ - 11/6/13 at 8:48pm
post #112 of 177

My impressions after a couple hours of burn-in and more listening: It doesn't have a lot of obvious shimmer like most headphones, but the details are certainly there and actually a bit more of it after listening more closely. Now, it is much easier for me to pick up on subtle trickles and tings in the background and the hiss in recordings, though the headphone's frequency response doesn't seem to be the main reason. I would wager that this immediate access to more effortless detail is a natural benefit of the low distortion and the excellent square wave performance. A sort of removal of the haze and blur from the camera lens. There seems to be more naturalness, not openness, in it compared to other headphones I have experienced. The midrange can be quite rich and involving. I like it more than what I remember about the AKG Q701 because it lacks the slight upper midrange honkiness while still being very smooth. It is a nice contrast to the bright and reckless--and, for some, grating--Superlux HD681.

 

I do not have access to the equipment or the expertise that Tyll would. But I do refer to all the major headphone measurement sources out there ( Reviewed, GoldenEar, HeadRoom, Innerfidelity, etc.) as a reference of sorts. Also take note of my current equipment in my signature. It is not top shelf by any means but, to my ears, it sounds better than most. I do always try to learn and grow and so I appreciate your comments. Thanks!

post #113 of 177

Some quick comparison tracks between my Superlux and the Tascam: First, in the special compendium album Burt Bacharach - "Something Big." In "Reach Out for Me," the first female vocal entry has actually plenty of air and is very neutral and natural and there is decent soundstaging and placement of those vocals in the left channel. In "I Say a Little Prayer," the very, very, barely noticeable vocals in the left channel behind the calliope are actually noticeable and still warm, smooth, but not overly rich, a la HD650. The Tascam actually performs better here than the Superlux, a real plus! Just like Tyll said and the graph confirms, the treble has a slightly nasal, stratchy quality, which is apparent in the initial intermix between the cymbals and the scratcher in the middle channel but I can endure it just for the purity of tone. Winner: Tascam.

 

The iconic Brazilian band Legion Urbana sounds quite good in their live album Acústico MTV. In particular, "Índios" and "Mais do Mesmo" seems to highlight the effortless, natural detailing. What stands out is that I can easily switch my aural focus between the different instruments and Renato Russo's voice more as if I were there live. Oh, and that naturalness of tone makes it convincing again. It doesn't have the naturalness of shine and shimmer that the Superlux excels at emiting. But it does do worlds better, for me, with the vocals, and exhibiting the rolling of warmth through the sonic space, giving a greater authenticity to it all. On a whole, it is much easier to sit back and just enjoy the sound. Winner: Tascam.

 

(...)

 

At this point, live recordings and instrumental and vocal music all sound great. In other songs I will describe here later, digitally created sounds and cymbal definition aren't quite what I'd like but it's actually very fast and accessible. Again, there is something about the drivers that makes me forget all about the lack of response-related apparency of definition and just relax and enjoy. It's almost as if a Sennheiser HD650 and a Shure SRH840 were merged, any excess warmth was completely deflated, and the bass and midrange quality and detailing were further perfected. It is still hard to say what my thoughts are about the synthesizer artificiality, but I will continue listening and see what I think.

 

(...)

 

Now, after a bit of time and switching between headphones, the Superlux sounds a bit lifeless in comparison. Granted, the Superlux still has a bunch of energy and does great in the treble and very well in the midrange. It just lacks some heft and authority to be convincing. Yes, I like the Tascam MUCH more! :) And Tascam's treble problem has almost entirely disappeared after some mental or mechanical burn-in because everything sounds just so good now! Hall ambience and clarity is actually well weaved and more natural and, surprisingly, there is more detail, more than even the Superlux--just wow! (esp. The Carpenters - Yesterday Once More, Paula Fernandes - Ao Vivo) The bass especially is so effortless when hooked into my Objective 2. In the case of "City Escape: Act 1" from the Sonic Generations soundtrack, the opening bass goes all the way down to places I have never heard and it is just so effortless and unobtrusive at the same time--truly reference quality bass. Said simply: If you love quality bass, get these! They trump the ATH-m50 by a mile in bass alone!

 

This also has reawakened my original wish of buying a Denon D2000 or D5000 which are said to be warmer, more fun headphones. There's eBay but still I could have gotten a good price for them during some of the fire sales a while ago. I may seriously reconsider the eBay option and buy one when the best opportunity comes along if it has warmth like this along with the treble definition I am after. At any rate, they would be a good contrast and a nice change of pace to my Shure SRH940.

 

Albums Used in Testing:

Glenn Miller - Swing Time

Burt Bacharach - Something Big - The Complete A&M Years... And More!

Paula Fernandes - Meus Encantos

" - Paula Fernandes Ao Vivo

" - Pássaro de Fogo

Jorge & Mateus - E Aí Já Era

Sonic Team - Blue Blur: Sonic Generations Original Soundtrack

Jorge Vercillo - D.N.A.

Bread - Anthology of Bread

Chuck Mangione - Classics in Modern Jazz, Volume 6

Legião Urbana - A Tempestade

" - Acústico MTV

" - Legião Urbana

" - V

SEGA- Sonic Adventure "Songs with Attitude"

The Carpenters - Yesterday Once More

Lindsey Stirling - Lindsey Stirling


Edited by Sonichedgehog360 - 11/7/13 at 1:34pm
post #114 of 177

I tried these on my new Aune T1 and like the sound quite a bit. A slight bass boost and a cut at 10k works wonders. Can't believe I only spent $15 on them.

post #115 of 177

Wow, Sonic, that's an eclectic test mix. I'm excited to see someone on Head-fi listening to Legião Urbana. :-)

post #116 of 177

Mighty eclectic, I am!  I do listen to a bit of everything, and that is only a small portion of some of those things. I happen to listen to Legião Urbana because I lived and worked in Brazil as a missionary a while ago and was recommended their music by a native Brazilian. I love the several albums I have and probably will complete that collection as the years go on. How did you come to like Legião Urbana? Are you native Brazilian, a Brazilian aficionado, or, by chance, did you just stumble on their music?


Edited by Sonichedgehog360 - 11/7/13 at 3:23pm
post #117 of 177

Same as you, although I'm probably older. When I lived there I used to hear them being played on the buses. Que País É Este was the current album at the time, so that shows how long ago it was! They were always my favorite Brazilian group, though I have others I like.

post #118 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_WJ View Post
 

They do sound "like" $100 phones. But IMO they are not truly comparable to those headphones. You will notice slightly less clean bass/lower mids, slightly weak lower treble, and somewhat strong treble (which you already did). Note I used the word "slightly." They are kind of moderately well balanced. I can confidently say that they are comparable to any good, major-brand headphones retailing at $50 - $80 (e.g., AKG K518LE, Creative Aurvana Live, Senheiser HD 429, etc), basically telling that they can compete with things costing double their price.

 

By the way, if you can play with a good EQ software like Electi-Q or Rockbox built-in EQ, you will be able to obtain better tonal balance by slightly increasing the upper mids / lower treble (from 1.5 to 5 kHz) by 3 to 5 dB and lowering the treble from 8 to 12 kHz by 2 to 4 dB.

 

EDIT: Here is the EQ setting I use:

 

Filter 1

Center Freq: 3000 Hz

Gain: 4 dB

Bandwidth (Q): 2.5

 

Filter 2

Center Freq: 9500 Hz

Gain: -2.5 dB

Bandwidth (Q): 1.0

 

You will hear much better tonal balance. If you feel the treble still a bit too much (it sounds fine to me), you may adjust the gain of Filter 2 (e.g., -3 to -5 dB).


Have you found a better EQ since you posted this? For as small of a change that it is, this seems to make a big improvement to the overall tone and presentation. Thanks!

 

EDIT: After some fiddling with the settings on my Sansa Zip Clip, I admit that I like the treble slightly boosted by 2 or 3 dB. I need a slight party-like sound, but not to Grado's treble-boosted extremes. In many ways, I am now tending to believe that I will prefer this EQ'd Tascam over my SRH940 I will be getting in about two months. I wish I could get my hands on a HiFiMan HE-400 and see how they all compare to one another. I might resort to the Headphone Lending Library for that later on.


Edited by Sonichedgehog360 - 11/8/13 at 3:21pm
post #119 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwong View Post
 

Same as you, although I'm probably older. When I lived there I used to hear them being played on the buses. Que País É Este was the current album at the time, so that shows how long ago it was! They were always my favorite Brazilian group, though I have others I like.

I was a missionary in Brazil from 2010 to 2012, so that would make me a bit younger. hehe During my time there, Luan Santana and Paula Fernandes (sertanejo) were in the spotlight of the Brazilian populace. I am still keeping my eye on the Brazilian music scene and right now Annita (funk) has taken the country by storm. I do know of some music from Brazil's other key genres like MPB, samba and (sadly) arrocha.

post #120 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonichedgehog360 View Post


Have you found a better EQ since you posted this? For as small of a change that it is, this seems to make a big improvement to the overall tone and presentation. Thanks!
BTW: A high Q is actually narrower, in most EQ's a Q of 1.4 corresponds to approximately one octave, so you're cutting 9KHz down to around 3 KHz at the toe, so you may wanna adjust that.
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