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Soundstage does it exist with headphones ? - Page 6

post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

 

So can it  (i.e Izotope Ozone or Noozxoide)  compete with the effects from iCan, or does the iCan bring something unprecedented.


I do not have either setup with the software approaches as I have drastically simplified to using the Altmann Tera Player. So going just from memory, I would say the Noozxoide had the most realistic effects for creating a wide soundstage, with the iCAN a close 2nd. The iCAN to me has a great advantage since it is so simple to use and there are only three choices or settings. I find with the more complex software with lots of adjustments, I can spend more time tweaking my sound than listening to music. And yet it is nice to be able to vary the sound a bit when I get restless or the sound of a particular piece of music is too bright or too lively. With the iCAN, this just means reaching over and flicking a switch. I wrote this about it in a follow up post on my review thread:

 

I have had some more time with the Beyer T1s and the iCAN, and it is making me appreciate the lower ("one dot") setting on the 3D effects switch. I was intrigued that Vincent from iFi said he mostly listened to this setting, as on the HD650s it is kind of soft and muted although the music is nicely focused and unified. But the T1s tend to be very bright to my ears with already pretty good soundstage so the high end boost and space infusion of the "three dot" upper setting is simply too much on a lot of music. So I spent some time with the switch down on the one dot setting and found that with this very different effect, the T1s became very easy to listen to. The upper setting is a bit like the Ferrari in my car metaphor: tremendous potential but a bit finicky and difficult to get the most out of it. The lower setting is more like a big luxury sedan that you can just relax and enjoy. Still a nice taut and powerful ride, but a lot of comfort and ease also. The Ferrari can be incredibly stimulating and fun, but not necessarily something you want to spend days and days of driving with.

 

So the T1s with the full on 3D effect work best with simple ensemble music (say 1-5 musicians) where the added space and detail creates that spooky real sense of the sound being in the room. With more complicated music or with music that already has a lot of room ambience in the original recording, the sound gets a little scattered. And with overly bright recordings the sound gets a little too edgy. But then I just reach over and switch to the one dot setting and everything calms down and is much more forgiving. Again it is a sound you could listen to for hours. The little bit of crossfeed makes it much easier on your brain to just take in the flow of the music and not have to work so hard at keeping everything sorted.

 

In contrast the HD650s seem to need that injection of adrenaline and space that the three dot setting provides. Otherwise they can seem kind of thick and heavy. So with these phones, it is much more of a set it and forget it proposition. Mostly I just leave the switch up in the three dot position and listen from there. Only very occasionally does a song come on that has me wanting to tone things down a bit and now I go to the one dot setting for my dose of relaxation.

 

Instead of just one sound signature, I seem to like a lot of variety of sounds, which typically means reaching for a different set of headphones. But with this amp, I can just flick a switch when I get restless and experience a new gestalt to the music instantly.

post #77 of 84

This is a silly discussion. 

 

Of course it exists in headphones, but it's never going to sound the same as a properly setup 2 channel or 2.1 channel home stereo. 

 

Now whether you prefer headphones or speakers, that is up to you. For a lot of people a nice speaker setup isn't an option, so that is where headphones can come in. For me I'm kind of torn between the two. I do have a nice 2.1 speaker setup that is properly setup, and I'm still sitting here as we speak with headphones on my head. I like my stereo, but for some reason I just get more into the music with headphones. 

post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonb View Post

 

Of course it exists in headphones, but it's never going to sound the same as a properly setup 2 channel or 2.1 channel home stereo. 

Well I remind making a confusion between the sound coming from my pc speakers , and my hd595 so it's not that obvious. Or believing there's a dog coming from outside, or an helicopter above my head, while listening music with portable headphone, and then realizing it's in the recording.

 

I was scared as hell while doing my jogging with my ksc75, and listening for the first time this

(Melt banana - blank page of the blind  : At begin there are dogs barking).

 

 

Also I've read once an article that drivers can be disturbed if there's a siren in a  song ,

at the radio (maybe something like Beyoncé - Ring The Alarm). I imagine this could lead to accidents.

 

My point  is that regarding "sound localisation", we can be easily fooled,

and yep it can sounds  on headphone similarly to speakers, at least regarding soundstage.

That was the reaction of my dad when I've let him try my hd800 : "it sounds as if it comes from speakers."

post #79 of 84

I think its difficult to achieve soundstage in any case. If your looking for realistic soundstage from speakers acoustic room treatment becomes very important.

post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonb View Post

This is a silly discussion. 

 

Of course it exists in headphones, but it's never going to sound the same as a properly setup 2 channel or 2.1 channel home stereo. 

 

Now whether you prefer headphones or speakers, that is up to you. For a lot of people a nice speaker setup isn't an option, so that is where headphones can come in. For me I'm kind of torn between the two. I do have a nice 2.1 speaker setup that is properly setup, and I'm still sitting here as we speak with headphones on my head. I like my stereo, but for some reason I just get more into the music with headphones. 

 

Yes, it's never going to sound the same - but is one better than the other?  I personally don't think so.

My (2 channel stereo) speaker setup is never going to put the sound of a xylophone inside my head -

psychoacoustic trickery borne of the studio.

 

And of course while it doesn't "belong" there, the effect is nonetheless marvelous and delightful.

post #81 of 84

It's impossible to have a believable sound stage when using headphones. That doesn't stop people talking about it's existence however.

If you want the intended sound stage that stereo reproduction was intended to more accurately portray, you have to use loudspeakers in front of you positioned a distance apart and sit a specific distance from them in order to perceive the image of a sound stage that possesses width and depth, the idea being to convey a live performance.

If you really feel it necessary to hear the difference, just face the loudspeakers towards each other and sit between them, I promise you the sound stage will have no depth ;-)

Try it and you'll see what I mean and let's cut out all this nonsense about headphones and sound stage ;-)

You will never hear a opera or orchestra with the intended sound stage with headphones.

For a sound stage both ears have to hear the combination of left and right channel combined, the differing recording levels of right and left channel will determine the position of the source.

If you want to hear a voice at centre stage, the signal is recorded equally in left and right channels. It will appear to come from the centre in front of you using loudspeakers. That's because the ears can detect direction.

With headphones, you would be hearing the voice as 2 equal signals from the left and right direction, so the ears will hear sound from the left and right direction and will not come from the intended centre of the sound stage. You can use your imagination as much you want but it will only exist in your imagination. I don't need any imagination to hear the various position of instruments when using loudspeakers.


Edited by wilderturkey - 2/7/14 at 2:09pm
post #82 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilderturkey View Post
 

It's impossible to have a believable sound stage when using headphones. That doesn't stop people talking about it's existence however.

If you want the intended sound stage that stereo reproduction was intended to more accurately portray, you have to use loudspeakers in front of you positioned a distance apart and sit a specific distance from them in order to perceive the image of a sound stage that possesses width and depth, the idea being to convey a live performance.

If you really feel it necessary to hear the difference, just face the loudspeakers towards each other and sit between them, I promise you the sound stage will have no depth ;-)

Try it and you'll see what I mean and let's cut out all this nonsense about headphones and sound stage ;-)

You will never hear a opera or orchestra with the intended sound stage with headphones.

For a sound stage both ears have to hear the combination of left and right channel combined, the differing recording levels of right and left channel will determine the position of the source.

If you want to hear a voice at centre stage, the signal is recorded equally in left and right channels. It will appear to come from the centre in front of you using loudspeakers. That's because the ears can detect direction.

With headphones, you would be hearing the voice as 2 equal signals from the left and right direction, so the ears will hear sound from the left and right direction and will not come from the intended centre of the sound stage. You can use your imagination as much you want but it will only exist in your imagination. I don't need any imagination to hear the various position of instruments when using loudspeakers.

 

Studio "effects", which have been with us for years and of which there are many,

play an important role in the perception of "depth", "soundstage", and related aspects of

any particular recording. 

 

They do apply far less to classical recordings than to pop/rock/jazz -

especially where electronic sounds are present.

 

Sitting between two stereo speakers facing each other, as you suggest,

does not accurately simulate the spatial effects of music from headphones

being worn as designed on your head.

 

With discussions such as these, I for one prefer to avoid such terms as

"impossible"...

post #83 of 84

headphones can accurately portray amazing sound stage. if you don't believe me just listen to biaural recordings to hear the effect. 

post #84 of 84

Without crossfeed headphone soundstage is indeed very limited. I have used dsp crossfeed with foobar for years and I've been quite happy with it. After I got spl phonitor I'm even more impressed by crossfeed. Of course it's not a soundstage of a good tower speakers listened to a proper distance but it is as good as two genelec 6010's listened from a close distance.

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