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Soundstage does it exist with headphones ? - Page 4

post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

..This isn't convincing. Because there is no discussion of what this information might be or of the large difference between a 320 lame and 64 old-skool mp3. Even worse, there's no discussion of the fact that no one can tell (i.e. in a blind test rather than in their imagination) the difference between 320 aac/mp3/ogg and cd/wav/flac. If soundstage was so different wouldn't this in fact be very easy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

But that's the point - those FLACs that have been converted from MP3 are not true flac files (only in name), and if you had acquired your FLAC files from legitimate sources, you wouldn't be making this point.
In public forums people talk in absolutes, with the expectation that we're all talking about the same legitimate things. Your point on flac files bent those rules to accept something outside of those constraints.

An illegally (and falsely named) downloaded flac file is sure to create a bad argument. 

I was speaking solely in terms of scuttle's post, I was in no way speaking of realistic situations, just the situation brought up by scuttle.
post #47 of 84

While there is some very impressive technical information in this thread, IMO it's 

no longer sufficiently focused on the question in the OP.

post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

From what I've understood there's two compression mode with mp3, stereo and "joint stereo".

The stereo mode encode separately left & right , which is best at preserving "stereo image", but less efficient for compression at VBR.

 

The joint stereo, do first a mid side conversion before compression.

Where mid= (left + right)/2

and side = (left - right)/2

Off course the reverse conversion is straightforward too.

Often the side channel , contain less information, that's why it would compress better at variable bit rates, however with the most aggressive compression,

the stereo imaging would be more affected.

 

Now regarding mid/side encoding, you can have fun at modifying the imaging of your headphone , by using a vst like msed from voxengo.

Actually, if you want to have the illusion of bigger soundstage , you can boost slightly the treble on the side channel.

 

@Asr

 

With CBR , and using same encoder , that's actually the case (I  guess there might be small differences between encoders, because of headers or whatever) . Also mp3 doesn't remove only information below and above particular frequencies, but use psycho acoustics, to disregard imformations that our brain often miss. For instance a loud sound, immediately followed by a quiet sound, often you don't hear the quiet sound.

Oh and downsampling ... not related at all.


These are decisions you would make before encoding. Encoding at low bit rate is pretty close to an art form. With the proper settings you can get a 128kbps mp3 to sound pretty damned good even on high end equipment but you have absolutely no margin for error. My personal collection is ripped to 320kbps no joint stereo. This works out to 160kbps mono X 2 channels and is good enough for me.

post #49 of 84

...so what is the conclusion of this discussion? sound stage possible on headphones or impossible on headphones or only possible with certain audio source files?

post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

...so what is the conclusion of this discussion? sound stage possible on headphones or impossible on headphones or only possible with certain audio source files?

I thought it was quite clear from the first few posts that soundstage does exist in headphones, but not as a 3D-stereo-image you can get from loudspeakers (which it is often confused with).

It is the headphones ability to aid the stereo recording into fooling the brain that there is a spacial sound laid out around them with height and width with positional characteristics (sounds can be given a direction or location).

 

It's not a placebo or fake, it's more of a nice bi-product of some good recordings and a result of some advanced headphone science.

post #51 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREQ View Post

I thought it was quite clear from the first few posts that soundstage does exist in headphones, but not as a 3D-stereo-image you can get from loudspeakers (which it is often confused with).

It is the headphones ability to aid the stereo recording into fooling the brain that there is a spacial sound laid out around them with height and width with positional characteristics (sounds can be given a direction or location).

 

It's not a placebo or fake, it's more of a nice bi-product of some good recordings and a result of some advanced headphone science.

Well I guess I am asking about the last few posts where people are debating whether soundstage is dependent on the bitrate/compression. What was the conclusion of that discussion?

 

Also, some people were saying that it was "simulated/fake/tuned" or something along those lines. Would something like the the S-logic in the Ultrasone Pro 900 be an example of that? Or is that whole train of thought not the right way to look at it?

post #52 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

Well I guess I am asking about the last few posts where people are debating whether soundstage is dependent on the bitrate/compression. What was the conclusion of that discussion?

As I tried to explain before, some compression setting can affect more the side channel, and hence the imaging and soundstage.

But frankly I  wouldn't make  fuss of it, I'm sure that in such case more than the soundstage is affected.

 

Quote:
Also, some people were saying that it was "simulated/fake/tuned" or something along those lines.

I  disagree with the "fake" statement, but just let your ears decide.

post #53 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post

 Would something like the the S-logic in the Ultrasone Pro 900 be an example of that? Or is that whole train of thought not the right way to look at it?

Actually yes. Whether you like it or not is another thing entirely, as I absolutely abhor S-loic, and simply wear my headphones slightly forward (close to my face than the back of my head) which I think gives better 'soundstage'.

post #54 of 84

As I mentioned earlier there is a new destop amp that has a very intriguing 3D effect that gives a nice boost to soundstage. Here is the review I just posted about it:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/654405/ican-amp-review-a-new-amp-that-gives-you-more-more-bass-more-soundstage-and-more-detail

 

It has one of the best soundstage enhancements for headphones I have heard yet, and I have tried all kinds of hardware and software approaches. And there are two different settings to try, and if neither one is working with the song you are listening to, then switching off is just a matter of flicking a switch.

post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirmalanow View Post

As I mentioned earlier there is a new destop amp that has a very intriguing 3D effect that gives a nice boost to soundstage. Here is the review I just posted about it:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/654405/ican-amp-review-a-new-amp-that-gives-you-more-more-bass-more-soundstage-and-more-detail

 

It has one of the best soundstage enhancements for headphones I have heard yet, and I have tried all kinds of hardware and software approaches. And there are two different settings to try, and if neither one is working with the song you are listening to, then switching off is just a matter of flicking a switch.

It would be great if you tested the ican amp on the hd800, because if there's one headphone that doesn't need "soundstage enhancements", it's the hd800. However you mentioned the eph-100, that I  find as airy as the hd800, but perhaps the soundstage not as wide. I'm not surprised that you didn't notice much improvements with the "ican amp" and the eph-100, and I'm suspecting it would be the same with the hd800. What's cool with the hd800, is that with the soundstage, you still have a clean sound, and any "soundstage enhancement" would likely more muddy up the sound than anything else.

 

I've actually elaborated some complex dsp chain (well, I've made many try)  to push the illusion of the soundstage, and although  it can give nice result with my hd595, or hd25, I found the result a bit moot with the hd800. What seems to help with the hd800, is eq-ing as it affects the imaging, without changing radically the signal. Maybe for the "soundstage lover" the ican amp could be an affordable and straightforward solution,  but the hd800 offers all the soundstage you could dream of out of the box.

post #56 of 84

 I would love to try the HD800 someday with this amp. As I mention in the review, a big part of the added sense of realism actually comes from the bass, and the iCAN also does wonders with the bass.

 

I did try the Beyer T1s with this amp, and to my ears, they naturally have one of the best soundstages I have personally heard in headphones. And with these cans, the bass boost goes a long ways towards making them seem more balanced, and also in making the sound seem more real by adding in a more natural sense of scale or size to the music. Headphone bass can be so polite, and that makes the soundstage seem unnaturally small to my ears.

 

But surprisingly, I still like the 3D sound effect for a lot of music with the T1s. Especially with small ensemble music with maybe 2-6 instruments/voices, the lift in soundstage makes the music seem startingly real. I mentioned in the review how it is sometimes spookily real!
 

post #57 of 84

 

@Nirmalanow View Post

Well, you could record the output processed by the iCan, and let people test on youtube  (with a tune that doesn't have legal issues).

It was done with the digizoid  zo, and I'm sure it  could be done with the iCan amp effect.

post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

@Nirmalanow View Post

Well, you could record the output processed by the iCan, and let people test on youtube  (with a tune that doesn't have legal issues).

It was done with the digizoid  zo, and I'm sure it  could be done with the iCan amp effect.


Great idea! I will see if I can get to something like that in the next week or so, but I was glad to get this review up and move on to other things, so it might be a little while tongue.gif

 

Do you have a link to the youtube of the digizoid, so i can see how they set it up? Or is there a way to create short little music clips and post them on here?

 

I know with books, it is legal to copy a short excerpt. Is it the same with music? Could I share short clips from a longer song?


Edited by Nirmalanow - 3/7/13 at 7:40am
post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirmalanow View Post

Do you have a link to the youtube of the digizoid, so i can see how they set it up?

Here's a demo but  they don't explain the setup. However I'm thinking you just have to connect the ouput of the ican amp , to the line in/ mic in of a soundcard.

You might ask the experts at hydrogenaudio forum.

 

 

 

Quote:
I know with books, it is legal to copy a short excerpt. Is it the same with music? Could I share short clips from a longer song?

 

Look at parts called "creative common' and "public domain" of this article:

 

http://audio.tutsplus.com/articles/general/where-to-find-audio-files-you-can-redistribute-with-your-projects/

post #60 of 84

Thanks. I will look into it. I also contacted iFi (makers of the iCAN) and suggested they post audio samples on their website.

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