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Is there any reason to upgrade amplifiers if I have a Fiio E6? - Page 3

post #31 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

It's still a good reason to buy one that has more power than needed, because the correct way to EQ is to reduce the volume of frequencies you don't want to boost, and thus you end up having to listen to your headphone "louder than necessary". Note: by this, I mean you have to increase volume, or everything that you EQ'ed down would sound tinny.

 

I didn't say otherwise. Although a Sansa Clip+ will drive Fostex TR50 studio monitors or HD25-i-iis to ear bleed levels, so add-on amps aren't useful nearly as often as people think.

 


But EQ doesn't take away the characteristics of the headphone.

 

It certainly "takes away" the frequency response; that's the point! 

 

 

 You still need more power to increase volume. Since sound pressure level is measured using a logarithm function, it takes a lot more power to go up by just 1dB. 

 

Once again: a tiny $30 Clip+, EQed, will drive Fostex TR50s to "Your brain will be pulverized" levels. The actual amount of power needed to drive most headphones is easily provided.

 

 


Why do you think people need something as powerful as the Schiit Lyr?

 

That would depend on the person. If you are arguing that it should be assumed that people on this forum should always be presumed to be intelligent and knowledgeable, I am going to laugh at you.

post #32 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by stv014 View Post

 

Few people need something as powerful as the Schiit Lyr (mostly those with very inefficient planar magnetics), and those who have it are also often ones who believe that EQ (or any other digital processing) is evil and should never be used.

post #33 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by stv014 View Post

The amplifiers in both the E7 and E11 were measured to have fairly flat frequency response, with <0.1 dB attenuation at 20 Hz and 20 kHz, and both also have less than 1 Ω output impedance. Other than the obviously rolled off E5, only the E6 has a ~0.7 dB roll-off at 20 Hz, that could indeed make an audible difference in an ABX test, but not a major "night and day" difference.

 

Regarding undue colorations to the sound, an important source of these has already been explained at one of the links posted above:

Without careful level matching (by measurements, not by ear), subjective comparisons of amplifiers should be taken with more than just a grain of salt.

 

Okay, then let's disregard that discussion about which amp is more neutral, or which is more powerful, and go back to the issue of the OP:

 

Does it make sense, objectively, for him to move from Fiio E6 to something with a flatter frequency response?

 

Because the way I look at it, it does.

post #34 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

Okay, then let's disregard that discussion about which amp is more neutral, or which is more powerful, and go back to the issue of the OP:

 

Does it make sense, objectively, for him to move from Fiio E6 to something with a flatter frequency response?

 

Because the way I look at it, it does.

the e6 seems pretty flat to me. nothing i can notice when listening to it at least for me
(until you turn on the eq settings)

post #35 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetdragon View Post

the e6 seems pretty flat to me. nothing i can notice when listening to it at least for me
(until you turn on the eq settings)

 

Yeah, but I noticed you mention that you do use the EQ settings, so the differences do add up after all, right?

post #36 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

Yeah, but I noticed you mention that you do use the EQ settings, so the differences do add up after all, right?

 

This is silly:

 

1. Not everyone wants a neutral sound

 

2. The headphone may not be neutral

 

3. The ear cavity may need compensating for

 

4. The E5 does have a pretty damn neutral response! Viz -

 

post #37 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

Okay, then let's disregard that discussion about which amp is more neutral, or which is more powerful, and go back to the issue of the OP:

 

Does it make sense, objectively, for him to move from Fiio E6 to something with a flatter frequency response?

 

Because the way I look at it, it does.

 

Ok: first you shouw that you can't read a spec or a review and get the amount noise wrong, now you think that "which amp sounds more neutral" and the which has "a flatter frequency response" have nothing to do with each other...

post #38 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

And headphone impedance is not the end of the story. Their sensitivity/efficiency rating also plays into power requirement as well. 

 

No one thought otherwise; Ultrabike and I were discussing impedance in the post you just answered because a mismatch can create distortion. Google "headphone impedance mismatch."

post #39 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetdragon View Post

the only thing the E6 does is to boost the volume and change the eq sound.
the bass boost is not good either. it boosts all the way up to about 200hz from what i hear on it

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetdragon View Post

the e6 seems pretty flat to me. nothing i can notice when listening to it at least for me
(until you turn on the eq settings)

Agreed, if I use mine I only use it with its EQ disabled. If I need EQ, my Clip Zip has a nice 10 band parametric EQ courtesy of Rockbox.

post #40 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

Okay, then let's disregard that discussion about which amp is more neutral, or which is more powerful, and go back to the issue of the OP:

 

Does it make sense, objectively, for him to move from Fiio E6 to something with a flatter frequency response?

 

Because the way I look at it, it does.


Possibly. Looking at the e6's measurements and its frequency response, technically there is room for improvement. The question is whether that kind of improvement is going to be audible. He would probably have to try that out for himself, but he also said that he heard no difference between the e6 and the e17, which might be telling.

post #41 of 82

While I am correcting gross errors I should do something about this:

 

 

Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

But EQ doesn't take away the characteristics of the headphone. You still need more power to increase volume. Since sound pressure level is measured using a logarithm function, it takes a lot more power to go up by just 1dB. 

 

That a scale is log based does NOT automatically mean that going a notch (bam! sorry...) costs "a lot more." In fact, PRECISELY THE  OPPOSITE CAN BE TRUE. Everything depends on what number is being used as the base of the log - and which notches you are going between. Anyway, as confusing as Bill seems to find this, decibels are very simple: a 10 db increase means that output power has gone up 10 times. Which I personally find very unfrightening, but ymmv.

post #42 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

This is silly:

 

1. Not everyone wants a neutral sound

 

2. The headphone may not be neutral

 

3. The ear cavity may need compensating for

 

4. The E5 does have a pretty damn neutral response! Viz -

 

SigmaTel is the source right? There's clearly something messed up with those measurements but I guess you can still see the point up until around 15kHz.

 

3dB rolloff could easily be audible with some stuff though.

post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy4 View Post

SigmaTel is the source right? There's clearly something messed up with those measurements but I guess you can still see the point up until around 15kHz.

 

3dB rolloff could easily be audible with some stuff though.

 

Above 15kHz, I really do no care. The 3db at the bottom of the range is just a dab at eq; you see much worse at much higher prices.

 

"Oddly" doing a google search on +lyr frequency response under images returns nothing, as does +lyr frequency response +graph under web. One wonders if Schiit has a policy of not sending amps to people who will review them competently. Not to mention how Schiitoids "know" that the Lyr has anything like an even frequency response...

 

I also have to say - not only can't I see the point of the Lyr's 6W at 38ohms spec, but that given their history that Schiit are the last company I would trust to send 6W near a pair of decent headphones!


Edited by scuttle - 2/25/13 at 9:06am
post #44 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

That a scale is log based does NOT automatically mean that going a notch (bam! sorry...) costs "a lot more." In fact, PRECISELY THE  OPPOSITE CAN BE TRUE. Everything depends on what number is being used as the base of the log - and which notches you are going between. Anyway, as confusing as Bill seems to find this, decibels are very simple: a 10 db increase means that output power has gone up 10 times. Which I personally find very unfrightening, but ymmv.

also to add on: every 10db is x2 the human perception of loudness

post #45 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

Above 15kHz, I really do no care. The 3db at the bottom of the range is just a dab at eq; you see much worse at much higher prices.

 

"Oddly" doing a google search on +lyr frequency response under images returns nothing, as does +lyr frequency response +graph under web. One wonders if Schiit has a policy of not sending amps to people who will review them competently. Not to mention how Schiitoids "know" that the Lyr has anything like an even frequency response...

 

I also have to say - not only can't I see the point of the Lyr's 6W at 38ohms spec, but that given their history that Schiit are the last company I would trust to send 6W near a pair of decent headphones!

Right, I don't care about above 15kHz either, but at the same time I probably woudn't intentionally buy a device that actually had that steep of a drop off.

 

All it says about the lyrs frequency response is : 2Hz-200KHz, -3dB

 

Not very useful, if the -dB is within the extreme inaudible ranges, it's ruler flat, but it could be within the audible range, who knows.


The Asgard is ruler flat though, I measured it.


Edited by chewy4 - 2/25/13 at 10:05am
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