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The Fiio X3 Thread. - Page 440

post #6586 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
 

 

- Different version of the lame mp3 encoder produce encodes differing slightly in quality (for better or worse)

- lame mp3 are always encoded the same way, whether it´s on AMD, Intel, any MS Windows, Apple OS or Linux -> lame mp3 is designed to be completely platform independent

- the only difference between the platforms is encoding speed (depending on CPU speed & efficiency of the OS)

- until recently I wasn´t aware of decoding differerences but they existed roughly ten years ago with certain software based decoders

Still, I don't own a X3 but could this make a difference!

post #6587 of 17162
What's best software to encode flac from 16bit cd?
post #6588 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiterknight View Post
 

This is kind of interesting. I do not own a fiio X3 or neither do I intend to. But is it possible that different versions/releases of the lame mp3 encoder creates different results/lossy versions that are more or less react differently with the X3? Or does some of the lame mp3 encoder version perform/measure/sound better than others and/or better matched with certain processors/chips, well I do believe that's a possibility but it would need some extensive testing to check this out. Maybe ClioOS or someone else will one day find the time to challenge this? :-)

 

Just to note that my LAME encoder is v3.99.5, the latest. See below:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post
 

 

ClieOS, would you mind to try re-encoding my flac file to mp3 and see if you can produce an mp3 version that sounds less noisy on the X3?

 

 

I've noticed this issue on several (mostly classical) tracks, granted all rather quiet recordings, but they all sound cleaner on my SGS3 smartphone. I'm also pretty sure the files in question came from different sources and I'll see whether I can find another example among my Amazon mp3 downloads.

 

From my experience, those who only listen to pop and rock will be unlikely to notice audible artifacts, but those who listen to quiet genres like classical or ambient might very well be affected.

 

Already tried, and it shows no difference - mp3 is still noticeably more noisy after all the transcoding. In fact, I have gone as far as using Fraunhofer IIS encoder (= iTune encoded mp3) and the result is still the same.

 

I think I might have heard some of the same noise in FLAC, but much fainted. I wonder if it is possible that the mp3 encoding process somehow mistakes the noise as desired sound, combined with a sensitive decoder in X3 that results in risen noise floor in our ears. I just guessing here of course. But if that's the case, hopefully it is solvable via firmware.

 

Yeah, I just listened to a few Tchaikovsky and I think I have noticed some odd sound on 2~3 songs out of the 20. They are not as obvious as yours though, but still noticeable if I pay attention to it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
 

 

I have to ask: how did you encode the aac? You used the iTunes encoder just like me yet your measurements show distortions I haven´t seen yet coming from aac in combination with the FiiO. The results for mp3 are a match. But what was your datarate? Mine was 320 kBit/s for every codec (except wma).

 

I uses xrecode II for encoding / transcoding mostly, but xrecode II doesn't have a built-in AAC encoder but instead relies on iTune's encoder (so you have to install iTune first for xrecode II to borrow the encoder) for AAC and M4A encoding. FLAC is encoded in mid (5) quality, AAC and MP3 are both 320kbps.


Edited by ClieOS - 11/22/13 at 10:07pm
post #6589 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictioh View Post

Despite the super good music app on ios 7, but I'm still looking for a device with better sound and capable to store more music than my 16gb iPhone 5, then I chose x3.

First thing I test is transfer some 320kbps mp3 that I had in iPhone 5 to x3, then I run with klipsch s4 II by playing same track switching between both devices and I can notice x3 has much much clearer vocal and stereo effect, iPhone 5 just give me a little bit muffled sound, not only that but bass and mid also more accurate and shine on x3. I'm not pro audiophile and won't use what professional term to describe like those pro reviewer but when you start listening on x3, you will love the sound and keep you reminded to bring that unit everyday to work and you will think to turn it on to listen to your favourite everyday.

This should help put the mp3 decoding problems on the X3 in perspective. smily_headphones1.gif
Quote:
ClieOS, would you mind to try re-encoding my flac file to mp3 and see if you can produce an mp3 version that sounds less noisy on the X3?

Excuse me? I thought your flac was just a transcode of the mp3? Please clarify this. The flac was encoded from the mp3 source using foobar2000 just to show what ideal decoding of the mp3 should sound like, correct?
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 11/22/13 at 10:50pm
post #6590 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

Already tried, and it shows no difference - mp3 is still noticeably more noisy after all the transcoding. In fact, I have gone as far as using Fraunhofer IIS encoder (= iTune encoded mp3) and the result is still the same.

 

I think I might have heard some of the same noise in FLAC, but much fainted. I wonder if it is possible that the mp3 encoding process somehow mistakes the noise as desired sound, combined with a sensitive decoder in X3 that results in risen noise floor in our ears. I just guessing here of course. But if that's the case, hopefully it is solvable via firmware.

 

Yeah, I just listened to a few Tchaikovsky and I think I have noticed some odd sound on 2~3 songs out of the 20. They are not as obvious as yours though, but still noticeable if I pay attention to it.

 

Thanks!

 

Very interesting, because the issue seems to be somehow content related. I just ripped the WAV from a different recording of the same piece (London Philharmonic / Haitink) that I have on CD and encoded it to mp3. Guess what? It shows the same kind of artifacts on the X3 and sounds almost indistinguishable from the WAV on my SGS3.

 

Downloads:

WAV

mp3

 

Then I went on to dig up all 5 versions of the same piece that I have in mp3, very different recordings collected across several years. Every single one sounds noisy on the X3!

 

Downloads:

mp3 noise pack (Warning: 122MB zip file!)

 

Now this is mind-boggling, as I'm sure these were produced with different encoders. Why do all these files play back cleaner on my other DAPs?

post #6591 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

This should help put the mp3 decoding problems on the X3 in perspective. smily_headphones1.gif

Excuse me? I thought your flac was just a transcode of the mp3? Please clarify this. The flac was encoded from the mp3 source using foobar2000 just to show what ideal decoding of the mp3 should sound like, correct?

 

Of course, but even the transcoded flac sounds clean. So why not try to produce a clean mp3 from it?

 

As for putting things into perspective, see my above post. I've even provided an original WAV ripped from CD.

post #6592 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

I wonder if it is possible that the mp3 encoding process somehow mistakes the noise as desired sound, combined with a sensitive decoder in X3 that results in risen noise floor in our ears. I just guessing here of course. But if that's the case, hopefully it is solvable via firmware.

 

One more thing, as I said earlier, I noticed a very similar issue with PlayerPro on Android when the DSP pack is enabled. Even the noise patterns are eerily similar to my ears.

 

So anyone with an Android device can hear for themselves what I'm talking about, they don't even need to own a Fiio X3. Just install the free Trial version of PlayerPro and the DSP-Pack on top of it. Go to the options menu, enable the DSP-Pack (but don't touch the EQ or anything else) and then play one of my test files. Then disable DSP-Pack, play it again and see how much cleaner it sounds. The difference is pretty much comparable to how my X3 sounds in relation to my other DAPs with these files.

 

I too am just guessing here of course, but I don't think PlayerPro changes the mp3 decoder when you activate the DSP pack. So the issue on the X3 may also lie somewhere else than at the core of mp3 decoding.


Edited by james444 - 11/23/13 at 12:13am
post #6593 of 17162

Hmm MP3s sounds fine to me on the X3. But then again 99% of my memory is FLAC or some form of lossless. I haven't noticed anything funny with the few mp3 files I do have for the moment. 80db below is almost at the edge of hearing while music is playing. The distortion would have to be insane at -80db to hear under normal music conditions....

post #6594 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

...

I think I might have heard some of the same noise in FLAC, but much fainted. I wonder if it is possible that the mp3 encoding process somehow mistakes the noise as desired sound, combined with a sensitive decoder in X3 that results in risen noise floor in our ears. I just guessing here of course. But if that's the case, hopefully it is solvable via firmware.

...

I am so far from being an expert that this post is probably meaningless noise somewhat akin to the subject of the discussion. However, to me this sounds like a problem introduced when extending the resolution of something. This may be going from 16-bits to a higher resolution, or changing the sampling rate or something else I can't even think of. But, my suggestion is that it is the former. I.e. at some point some extra bits in the resolution have to be filled in and the way that they are filled in on the X3 results in noise which is audible in the quiet sections because the least significant bits which have just been filled in artificially have now been amplified to significance. Is this what is known as dithering? Anyway, in the unlikely event that I am correct, this should be easily fixed in firmware providing you have access to the bit of code that fills in the extra bits, and the algorithms for less-noisy dithering are not too complex (which I don't know for sure, but I don't believe they are). The software used to re-encode the mp3s back to FLAC probably has a better "ditherer", if that is indeed the correct name for the bit of software I am trying to describe, which is why you can't hear it in the FLAC file.

 

Also, based on a sampling of 1 (i.e. this is reasonably likely to be incorrect), this is probably unlikely to affect anyone who listens to recent recordings of non-classical because the uniformly high sound levels means that these least significant bits never become significant.

 

Feel free to contradict me as I freely admit that I am only guessing from a position of almost complete ignorance.


Edited by tjw321 - 11/23/13 at 1:00am
post #6595 of 17162

sorry, please may I ask you a help, it is a quit professional issue about the MP3 format compare with other format, Joe will figure out a better way to discuss it . I think this is a thread about X3 but not mp3 format. 

 

always, you guys already saw we working hard to improve X3 and fix bugs, so let's focus on something else.

post #6596 of 17162

We can see the effort James, Thanks.

keep up the good communication and good work!

post #6597 of 17162
Alright, let me get the ball rolling...

Any news for a X3 with a scroll wheel?
post #6598 of 17162
What
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

One more thing, as I said earlier, I noticed a very similar issue with PlayerPro on Android when the DSP pack is enabled. Even the noise patterns are eerily similar to my ears.

So anyone with an Android device can hear for themselves what I'm talking about, they don't even need to own a Fiio X3. Just install the free Trial version of PlayerPro and the DSP-Pack on top of it. Go to the options menu, enable the DSP-Pack (but don't touch the EQ or anything else) and then play one of my test files. Then disable DSP-Pack, play it again and see how much cleaner it sounds. The difference is pretty much comparable to how my X3 sounds in relation to my other DAPs with these files.

I too am just guessing here of course, but I don't think PlayerPro changes the mp3 decoder when you activate the DSP pack. So the issue on the X3 may also lie somewhere else than at the core of mp3 decoding.

What other dap have you tested ? If I put your mp3 in my iphone 5, so Will I expect iphone 5 plays clearer? If so I will download and test later
post #6599 of 17162

1.  How about doing a measurement of mp3 decoding for X3, iPod, Sony Walkman and any similar priced DAP.  The result should tell us where the X3 really stand against the others.

 

2.  Let's say you buy a DAP from company X, Y, Z and you are not happy with certain aspect(s) of their DAP.  So you go to a forum and throw a tantrum or even send a letter  to the company head. 

    - Would you even be able to get a response from them?

    - Would they change the product to your exact wishes (along with millions others who think their wishes are the first priority)?

    - Would any of the big brands even communicate on this site?

 

3.  Yes, the X3 has room for improvement but you are buying a $200 product; Not the Fiio company.

 

4.  If you are SO unhappy with your X3, then perhaps you would be better served with a $200(?) Apple device.

 

5.  I am not going to feed into any trolls.

post #6600 of 17162
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesFiiO View Post

sorry, please may I ask you a help, it is a quit professional issue about the MP3 format compare with other format, Joe will figure out a better way to discuss it . I think this is a thread about X3 but not mp3 format. 

always, you guys already saw we working hard to improve X3 and fix bugs, so let's focus on something else.

Yes, you're all cordially invited to add my skype: joe0bloggs (with a zero in the middle) or pm me to discuss the issue of mp3 and other lossy format decoding on the X3. In particular, on skype we can share problem samples quickly and one of the chief engineers may join the discussion (no promises!)

This is not an attempt to gag the discussion on this thread--you're all free to continue to talk about it here as much as you want tongue.gif But keep in mind that this is THE premier thread on the X3 on head-fi that everyone turns to for information and evaluation about the unit as a whole. At some point you may want to ask yourself, what do you think of the X3 *as a whole* right now? Does the tack of the discussion in the last few pages reflect the quality of the X3 *as a whole*?
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