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The Fiio X3 Thread. - Page 436

post #6526 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbradley02 View Post
 

And that is about the same as you get with a pristine vinyl record.

I get a huge kick out of some of the posts in Head-Fi along the lines of "DAC chip XYZ with SNR of 130dB has to be much better than DAC chip ABC with SNR of 120dB".

 

One thing I am curious about - question for Marlene - what was used for a test signal?

 

And I am not saying this isn't something that Fiio shouldn't be paying attention to - they should. Just don't make a buying decision based on it. My Fiio X3 handily beat my Colorfly C4 and I am looking forward to the X5 when it comes out, and yes I will continue to use MP3s almost exclusively.

 

Thank you for elaborating on this. I placed my order on Amazon. Hopefully it should arrive next week so I have the long Thanksgiving weekend to mess around with it. I currently use a Cowon J3, but I'm hoping to further enhance my portable listening experience without having to lug around a few bricks.

post #6527 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbradley02 View Post
 

Also keep in mind that while the issue definitely manifests in testing, many people have had very positive listening experiences using MP3 files (including me). Some tube amps that people swear by test awful (several% THD anyone?)

So it would be fair to say that while there is possible room for improvement it is not "bad" as is.

 

I cannot and I do not agree. Distortion is something to be completely avoided in my opinion. Especially if the device is almost distortion free... which happens to be the FiiO X3. When playing back files causes an electronic device like the X3 - a unit usually lacking distortions - to now have distortions, it´s even more ironic.

 

Furthermore, I don´t care if people prefer that distortion or this one. Distortions change the sound. Period. Some distortions are good for one genre of music but on other genres - classical music for example - they simply suck. Big time.

 

Take those testoterone-laden 60s-rock in mono sound (Rolling Stones, anyone?) which profits a lot from even-order distortions.... people find all the usual adjectives for their sound: warm, colourful, musical, less digital, blablablabla. 

 

Imagine playing pristinely recorded classical music in combination with these distortions: distorted, horrible sound.

 

I usually listen not to one or two musical genres but to several. I simply need a neutral device. Distortions are anything but neutral so they´re out of the question.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjw321 View Post

Agreed. To give some perspective, the distortion is at about -60db which in everyday units is 1/1000000 times as big as the signal. I.e. The signal is 1 million times stronger than the noise. Of course, it's not as simple as this, because our hearing isn't linear, but I think to most people, under most listening conditions, it shouldn't be particularly bothersome. I have a few mp3s and they don't seem significantly worse than the FLACs and AAC files I have.
 

Those distortions caused by faulty decoding are non-linear, digital distortions where the level doesn´t say anything about their audibility. If those were even- or odd-order distortions I wouldn´t have said anything except what is standing above but these digital distortions are much more audible to our ears since they are not harmonious with the music.


Edited by Marlene - 11/21/13 at 5:18pm
post #6528 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbradley02 View Post
 

And that is about the same as you get with a pristine vinyl record.

I get a huge kick out of some of the posts in Head-Fi along the lines of "DAC chip XYZ with SNR of 130dB has to be much better than DAC chip ABC with SNR of 120dB".

 

I love you - you´re correct! I´ve written much more, I could have just answered your post instead.

 

Quote:
One thing I am curious about - question for Marlene - what was used for a test signal?

 

The test signals were RMAA generated: 32/48 & 16/48 (32/48 results posted)

 

Quote:
And I am not saying this isn't something that Fiio shouldn't be paying attention to - they should. Just don't make a buying decision based on it. My Fiio X3 handily beat my Colorfly C4 and I am looking forward to the X5 when it comes out, and yes I will continue to use MP3s almost exclusively.

 

Very well said again. Don´t make a buying decision because the MP3 decoding isn´t up to other players standards - YET. On the whole the FiiO X3 doesn´t seem to be completely neutral but easily beats every other portable I´ve ever owned (and still own, just look at my signature).

post #6529 of 13080

I just want this mp3 decoding issue fixed so we can move past this long national nightmare.

post #6530 of 13080

I just got my X3, and connected to PC (windows 7 64bits) as DAC. Everything plays well but on the device screen always displaying 44 KHz/24Bits eventhough i'm playing 192KHz flac file from computer, is this expected or a bug? 

 

And i try to play 16 bits mp3 song, it stay same and doesn't change to 16 bits either.

post #6531 of 13080
Change that setting using the windows sound icon under default output options. The x3 plays what Windows tells it to play
post #6532 of 13080

Ok i got you. It says "Select the sample rate and bit depth to be used when running in shared mode" WHat is shared mode ? and if i choose 192khz 24 bits and follow up with playing low quality mp3, what will happen ?

post #6533 of 13080

AW: The Fiio X3 Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erictioh View Post

...And i try to play 16 bits mp3 song, it stay same and doesn't change to 16 bits either.

It always shows 24Bit, no matter what, because the X3 internally uses 24 bit resolution. I suggested to Fiio they should just remove the bit-display (leave only sample rate) if they can't show the true incoming bit-depth, but they didn't listen...
post #6534 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennylane View Post
 

I just want this mp3 decoding issue fixed so we can move past this long national nightmare.

 

1, The RMAA test is not a serious reference for technical and  R/D if you are refer to the THD test result of MP3 , OGG, FLAC, WAV.

 

2, of course, mp3 format will have bigger THD than other lossless format. that is why we need lossless DAPs.

post #6535 of 13080

Am i alone with a problem of 0dBFS signal? Link with pictures - http://www.head-fi.org/t/691205/the-release-of-fiio-x3s-new-firmware-fw2-1-nov-20th-2013#post_9995264 .

I think it is software problem. Hope this will fix in the near future.

post #6536 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesFiiO View Post
 

 

1, The RMAA test is not a serious reference for technical and  R/D if you are refer to the THD test result of MP3 , OGG, FLAC, WAV.

 

2, of course, mp3 format will have bigger THD than other lossless format. that is why we need lossless DAPs.


Good point, RMAA is not really a proper tool for serious audio measurements.

post #6537 of 13080

James,

 

i'd like to request that the "maximum volume" doesn't have 31 as a minimum, but can be set as low as 0. personally i never want the volume higher as 25.

post #6538 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesFiiO View Post
 

1, The RMAA test is not a serious reference for technical and  R/D if you are refer to the THD test result of MP3 , OGG, FLAC, WAV.

 

2, of course, mp3 format will have bigger THD than other lossless format. that is why we need lossless DAPs.

 

Hmm, are you suggesting that there might be no mp3 decoding issue on the X3? Just asking, because you acknowledged my earlier bug report and announced that Fiio would fix it within the next two firmware versions (which, btw, they didn't). Just for the record, that's not a single issue with just one mp3 file, I have a whole bunch of mp3 tracks that exhibit audibly more background noise with the X3 than with my other DAPs.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not my intention to bitch and I'll gladly grant Fiio all the time they need for a fix. I'd just like to have put beyond dispute that there's definitely an issue with mp3 decoding on the X3.

post #6539 of 13080

James, have you tried re-encoding some of your files with a different encoder just to be sure it isn't a codec issue? I have an occasion where one of my FLAC file is also audibly distorted, but re-encoding fixes the problem and turns out to be the issue of the encoder.

 

Just run a RMAA test recently on both wav, flac, mp3 and acc using X3. Don't see any problem on wav and flac but mp3 and acc are both noticeably more distorted for sure, though in different ways. From the surface, they do look more like compression artifact. Then again, there is no easy way to be sure from my end.


Edited by ClieOS - 11/22/13 at 5:25am
post #6540 of 13080
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictioh View Post

Ok i got you. It says "Select the sample rate and bit depth to be used when running in shared mode" WHat is shared mode ? and if i choose 192khz 24 bits and follow up with playing low quality mp3, what will happen ?

That depends on your sampling algorithm.

Playing at a higher bit depth (24) when your music is NOT at 24 does nothing. At best, it gives you finer control of the volume, at worst it does nothing. That depends on who is controling the volume: software or windows. If windows is controling the volume, you have a 16 bit signal being played at full dynamic range into windows sound, then you are controlling windows interface directly in terms of output. This is not ideal, and this i the point of WASAPI and ASIO output modes in the first place. If the software volume is the one being controlled, you are instead doing a 16 bit to 24 bit conversion, but the number wont change. IE you can only count from "1 to 10" with 16 bit, evn though 24 bit lets you count from "1 to 100", so if your source file is 16 bit, playing from a 24 bit output will do nothing but let you set the volume to "10". I hope that simplified things, its not really correct to say, but for the sake of understanding, its an OK example. Alternatively, you could map the outputs 1-10 to the output levels of 1-100, and that means that changing your output by 1 will change the volume of your source by, technically, 1/10th. So really it depends on how its implemented.

So just use wasapi and save yourself the headache.

For upsampling: it depends greatly on how it is implemented. Best case scenario: nothing happens. Worst case scenario, noise and crap is introduced into your stream.

My rule of thumb: if my source file is in a certain format, that is my output settings. That is why i dont bother wasting money on frivolous audiophoolery junk like 192/24 bit stuff. I dont have any sacd, i just use 16/44.1. (refer to the xiph.org article about high res formats, plus i cant find any sacd that i actually enjoy listening to. just stuffy classical and jazz music. blech).
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

Hmm, are you suggesting that there might be no mp3 decoding issue on the X3? Just asking, because you acknowledged my earlier bug report and announced that Fiio would fix it within the next two firmware versions (which, btw, they didn't). Just for the record, that's not a single issue with just one mp3 file, I have a whole bunch of mp3 tracks that exhibit audibly more background noise with the X3 than with my other DAPs.

Don't get me wrong, it's not my intention to bitch and I'll gladly grant Fiio all the time they need for a fix. I'd just like to have put beyond dispute that there's definitely an issue with mp3 decoding on the X3.

He is not suggesting there is no decoding issue. He is saying that RMAA is a terrible and amateur level test. It can be used by high school and college students without a problem just to do some simple testing but apart from that it leaves too many unknowns and variables unaccounted for to be taken seriously in any true engineering specification. The nwavguy (come back, guy) article referenced above has plenty of useful information about the specifics, but it is so packed with information (as usual) that it is hard to get through unless you already know what you're looking at.

I think Fiio's next hurdle will be this UI issue on the firmware (which will be kind of backburner because of the dev time it takes) along with some high priority sound issues, formats, and things like that. This is a newer issue that will need planning to tackle, and while I would expect Fiio to tackle the issue, I dont expect it in the next firmware update. maybe the one after.
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