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The Fiio X3 Thread. - Page 402

post #6016 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by buruma View Post
 

Incredible New X3  Mod with WM8741 DAC & OPA627BP opamp !!!

All functions are fine. and, The sounds is more excellent!!

I think, It's better than AK120...

Today, I'm going to own this X3 DAP. =)

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a lot of effort to fit it in. It would be interesting to listen and see whether WM8741 makes a big difference over the WM8740. Personally I wish Fiio chose a more modern D/A chip for the X3, since WM874x series is getting a bit dated. My CD player from 2007 had it. Technology at the time couldn't handle 192kHz at 256fs mode, while any newer DACs can.

 

For the opamp, what's the reason for using BP (DIP) rather than using two SOIC chips like 627AU on a small adaptor board?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

 

Subjective perception aside, OPA627 is a not a good choice for output stage opamp - not particularly good voltage swing, limited capacitance load capability, plus a 55ohm open loop output impedance. The better way of using OPA627 is to have a buffer stage after the opamp so it will never need to drive any load directly.

 

Me too would use OPA627 for an I/V or something, but not for driving headphones on a 5V supply. It was not made for that kind of application. It will certainly make it sound unique and different though. Very warm and thick. I think the AD8397 that's originally used in the X3 is a good choice to suit a wide range of headphone demands.

post #6017 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandalaudio View Post
 

 

That's a lot of effort to fit it in. It would be interesting to listen and see whether WM8741 makes a big difference over the WM8740. Personally I wish Fiio chose a more modern D/A chip for the X3, since WM874x series is getting a bit dated. My CD player from 2007 had it. Technology at the time couldn't handle 192kHz at 256fs mode, while any newer DACs can.

 

For the opamp, what's the reason for using BP (DIP) rather than using two SOIC chips like 627AU on a small adaptor board?

 

 

 

Me too would use OPA627 for an I/V or something, but not for driving headphones on a 5V supply. It was not made for that kind of application. It will certainly make it sound unique and different though. Very warm and thick. I think the AD8397 that's originally used in the X3 is a good choice to suit a wide range of headphone demands.

 

I've tested with AD8397, AD8620BR, OPA627AU, OPA627BP.

and, I choose OPA627BP...

OPA627AU & OPA627BP produces little different sound.

and, AD8397 soound, it's not my taste.

post #6018 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by buruma View Post
 

 

two 627BP receive power supply (over 5V) from X3's battery.
therefore, two 627BP works fine. no problems.

also, output impedance open loop was adjusted to resistance.

 

I am not talking about power supply, but voltage swing. IIRC, OPA627 swings to about 2.5V of the supply rail, that means +/-5V only gives you +/-2.5Vp-p at most. You will lose more dynamic and clip easier on slightly harder-to-drive load. The additional wires that are needed for the adapter also adds more capacitance to an opamp that isn't good with capacitance to begin with. While the final output impedance does depends on the closed loop resistance, it is unlikely to be very low. These conditions all end up to further limit what the mod'ed X3 can drive properly. I am not saying it won't work well on certain conditions, but the cons seems to outweigh the pros.

post #6019 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post

I am not talking about power supply, but voltage swing. IIRC, OPA627 swings to about 2.5V of the supply rail, that means +/-5V only gives you +/-2.5Vp-p at most. You will lose more dynamic and clip easier on slightly harder-to-drive load. The additional wires that are needed for the adapter also adds more capacitance to an opamp that isn't good with capacitance to begin with. While the final output impedance does depends on the closed loop resistance, it is unlikely to be very low. These conditions all end up to further limit what the mod'ed X3 can drive properly. I am not saying it won't work well on certain conditions, but the cons seems to outweigh the pros.

I'm using it while 1 month.
There is no problems to drive...
If you want to check it, you can buy it at eBay.
Thanks.
post #6020 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by buruma View Post


I'm using it while 1 month.
There is no problems to drive...
If you want to check it, you can buy it at eBay.
Thanks.

 

Good for you then, I won't buy it personally with so much uncertainty involved. With the kind of price they are asking, I want to see some comprehensive measurement beside the word 'premium' in their listing. That's just too much wishful thinking for the extra 250% price hike, especially since the material needed only costs less than $100.


Edited by ClieOS - 10/28/13 at 11:21pm
post #6021 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by buruma View Post



I'm using it while 1 month.

There is no problems to drive...

If you want to check it, you can buy it at eBay.

Thanks.

 



Almost...sound like you're the eBay merchant in question smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by rapier84 - 10/28/13 at 11:43pm
post #6022 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier84 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buruma View Post



I'm using it while 1 month.

There is no problems to drive...

If you want to check it, you can buy it at eBay.

Thanks.

 



Almost...sound like you're the eBay merchant in question smily_headphones1.gif

 

In our South Korea, many peoples changed new OPAMP(8620BR, 627AU, 627BP) of Fiio E17, E12, X3 from Bboricha .

and, few days ago, He success to mod DAC chip. (WM8740 to WM8741)..

I'm just one of X3 mod users.

I know, He has been start to sell his X3 Mod(WM8741, OPA627BP) on eBay.

post #6023 of 17129
Quote:

Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post

 

 



Good for you then, I won't buy it personally with so much uncertainty involved. With the kind of price they are asking, I want to see some comprehensive measurement beside the word 'premium' in their listing. That's just too much wishful thinking for the extra 250% price hike, especially since the material needed only costs less than $100.





 



You must have due regard for value for professional skill.

iPhone 5c (16GB) material is just USD $173.45

also,The material of  many portable amps, daps(such as AK120) are very cheap than official price.

and, AK120 is USD 1,299.0 at amazon. but, I like my X3 Mod than AK120.

post #6024 of 17129

I do think AK120 is overpriced, but that's a different story.

 

X3 is $200, the mod material is $100 at most, but the mod X3 is sold at $700. That means you are playing $400 for a person to mod tha player - I can solder pins myself (after all, I am the first person to mod X3), and so are many DIYer in the forum here. It will probably take anyone with a decent DIY / soldering skill less than half a day to finish mod'ing the X3, likely less than 3 hours if the person is very good at DIYing. Do I think the kind of labour needed to mod a X3 should worth extra $400 over the cost of the player and material? Absolutely no. A fair price to ask, at least IMO, will be $450 - 500 for the whole thing. Asking for $700 is just as bad as AK120.

post #6025 of 17129
Btw a shop in HK offering similar mod WM8741 but with OPAmp8620 is only charging for $140.

AK100 Red wine mod at $60, which is definitely a more reasonable price compared to other scumbags out there smily_headphones1.gif
post #6026 of 17129

I'd be more curious what a change to the WM8742 would be like. It's not the flagship, but it's a fascinating chip --- not enough people use it.

post #6027 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post
 

I do think AK120 is overpriced, but that's a different story.

 

X3 is $200, the mod material is $100 at most, but the mod X3 is sold at $700. That means you are playing $400 for a person to mod tha player - I can solder pins myself (after all, I am the first person to mod X3), and so are many DIYer in the forum here. It will probably take anyone with a decent DIY / soldering skill less than half a day to finish mod'ing the X3, likely less than 3 hours if the person is very good at DIYing. Do I think the kind of labour needed to mod a X3 should worth extra $400 over the cost of the player and material? Absolutely no. A fair price to ask, at least IMO, will be $450 - 500 for the whole thing. Asking for $700 is just as bad as AK120.

 

I think you have to understand that there is still an ongoing belief in Asia that anything that has OPA627 is going to be expensive and good.

 

OPA627 was high performance way back in the early days of Difet opamps, and it was extremely expensive because of the trimming accuracy and dev costs. This was the days when 90% of the audio manufacturers were using NE5532 at 5 cents each. Some of the best high end gear in the 1990's had the OPA627 so it became the symbol for "high-end"Nowadays it's tough to keep up with the modern high slew rate low power opamps intended for portable applications.

 

 

The fact is when new opamps later came out at cheaper price to replace/beat the OPA627 (OPA827, AD8610 etc) nobody seemed to care because they were too cheap and easy to obtain, while OPA627 was hard to obtain and shrouded in myths (and lots of fakes).

 

The main issue is that the high power draw and non rail-to-rail performance of OPA627 makes it a strange choice for a portable gain/buffer stage running on a battery. Battery is not as stable as people believe it to be, especially under load. Running OPA627 on a choppy 5V supply is like running a vintage V8 engine on economy gasoline. The important thing is... It will definitely sound "different", whether it is good or not.


Edited by sandalaudio - 10/29/13 at 3:12am
post #6028 of 17129
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

I'd be more curious what a change to the WM8742 would be like. It's not the flagship, but it's a fascinating chip --- not enough people use it.

 

I thought the WM8742 is just a low-cost version of the 8741, with the same architecture but slightly worse S/N.

 

 

Anyway I would have been happier if X3 had WM8741 to begin with but the cost is like more than double. It's probably not worth raising the X3's selling price.

It's interesting to try as a DIY but I think Fiio made a good choice of components for the X3. I doubt the WM8741-42 would make such a huge difference. Maybe they should spend the effort on improving the power/analog circuit or changing it to a different modern DAC for the next player, like ESS or something.


Edited by sandalaudio - 10/29/13 at 3:29am
post #6029 of 17129

without going into the debate of the price and cost etc....

 

I just did a quick A/B using X3 mod line out (8741) and DX50 stock line out (8740) connecting to kojo driving Philips X1 listening to the same Jacqueline du Pre's 24/96 album.... evidently, the 8741 X3 mod produces the subtle detail that could not be heard from the stock DX50 line out connecting the same amp and phones... Having said that, DX50 line out is more neutral when comparing with X3 mod which has a more lively and musical sound...

 

this is no science but just my feeling that the 8741 mod does introduce improvement....

post #6030 of 17129

I looked over their ebay listing, and if you flip through their feedback you'll see all they ever sold is volume cap covers for the ak100/ak120.  It makes the auction seem all the more suspicious, and with a minimum price of 740 bucks, who in their right mind would buy it, especially from a seller who may or may not have actually ever sold one (the jury is still out on that).  I'm sorry, but the price is hilariously high, I'm not really sure whats in this mod that would warrant a 540 dollar premium over a stock x3.  Just my two cents, however.

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