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Earsonics SM64: The Impressions Thread - Page 45

post #661 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

The only reason I could personally come up with was that Pink Noise incorporates not only how the driver will perform against the given frequency itself (the one being measured through the sine wave counterpart), but also every other frequency that is produced.  Does a driver change how it sounds when other frequencies are present?  We really don't know how it'll react in this way.  I did do a bit of digging and found this.  It's for measuring loudspeakers, but does clearly outline the advantages of using pink noise over a sine sweep

 

 

Also, if they were using an RTA program to measure, it's standard, if I'm not mistaken, is actually to use pink noise.  An FFT's standard is for a sine sweep.  I could be mistaken though.

Quote: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?451-Measuring-loudspeakers-and-a-training-course
F. What is the advantage of pink noise over tone (or impulse) tesing in-room?

In-room, pink noise gives a much better impression of how the speaker will sound than a test signal. The pink noise frequency response curve 'sweeps up' all energy radiated by the speaker, on and off axis inclusding the effect of reflections from the floor, wall etc.. Pink noise is not a windowed response, so it can, under optimum conditions, gives a holistic impression of how the speaker performs. An anechoic response that shows a level change across a frequency band may show a flat response when tested in-room with pink noise. Which is correct? Both, yet neither. It may be necessary to back away from a ruler flat anechoic response if listening and in-room pink noise testing show (as they often do) that a ruler flat anechoic response under-reads the total amount of energy sprayed into the listening room.

 

That's called intermodulation distortion and can be measured separately.  It's not an excuse for futzing up the FR measurement.

 

As for your quoted article that claims that sine sweeps cannot be used for room measurements, just because he doesn't know how to do it doesn't mean it can't be done easily.  Maybe he should take some notes from Room EQ Wizard.  Never mind that we are talking about headphone measurements not loudspeaker measurements.

post #662 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

 

That's called intermodulation distortion and can be measured separately.  It's not an excuse for futzing up the FR measurement.

 

As for your quoted article that claims that sine sweeps cannot be used for room measurements, just because he doesn't know how to do it doesn't mean it can't be done easily.  Maybe he should take some notes from Room EQ Wizard.  Never mind that we are talking about headphone measurements not loudspeaker measurements.

 

It could also be the hardware they are using to measure...  Older hardware, knowing that EarSonics is an older company, requires pink noise to be used on their FFT/RTA systems.  I don't understand the reason why everyone's ragging on EarSonics for using pink noise?


Edited by tinyman392 - 6/26/13 at 9:44am
post #663 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

 

It could also be the hardware they are using to measure...  Older hardware, knowing that EarSonics is an older company, requires pink noise to be used on their FFT/RTA systems.  I don't understand the reason why everyone's ragging on EarSonics for using pink noise?

 

Because pink noise measurements introduced noise into the measurements and made the phones look like they measure better than they actually do?

post #664 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

 

Because pink noise measurements introduced noise into the measurements and made the phones look like they measure better than they actually do?

 

That was the smoothing used...  Rin already stated that the graphs that were used are the same.  Their data matches his data.  So I don't know what this extra noise is, but it sure isn't to major if Rin feels the graphs are still showing the same data...  If random added noise is added to the graph, there is never a guarantee that it'll make it look better, or even change it for that matter.

 

EarSonics provided raw graphs as well as smoothed graphs when asked and stated their reasoning for having the dip at the 5 kHz region...  Attacking the use of pink noise is kind of a straw man attack as Rin already confirmed both graphs show the same thing. 


Edited by tinyman392 - 6/26/13 at 10:02am
post #665 of 1359

-> theMarksRemains

 

 

To me what differ is that they can go deeper in you rear, you can cut the base where you want and the insertion is very soft...so very very comfortable. 

 

Speaking about the sound, I think they tend to refine the treble a bit and so, open the sound. 


Edited by sly_in_the_sky - 6/26/13 at 11:37pm
post #666 of 1359

If I can say something, with my simple words, I really think people should not only make statements only by looking at graphs.

 

I know that Franck Lopez conceptualize his Iems and Ciems like an artist, using his own ears first and his artistic feeling...he also is musician so his point of view of making Iem is not only a pragmatic/rationnal/graphic concept. I say that for those that read the lasts posts perhaps without knowing that but if a IEM was created with a perfect flat line, it would be awfull for most people to ear it because of the way our ear tend to react with an unnatural way of listening sounds (In EAR put directly sound in the ear).

 

 

 

As you can see, there's not a dip but a big spike in the medium.... to allow our ear also to listen to bass and treble, some companys prefer to dip the medium region...but at the end, the goal is to give a natural sound....

 

The goal of Earsonics like others (if not ALL companys) is just to adapt sound to our ears frequencies reactions, but at the end, to create a realistic sound. 

 

You can say what you want about this dip in the 5k region, I owned several Hi-end IEM and the medium/treble transition on the SM64 is the sweetest I eard except my EM4/EM6....of course. So please stop using these graphs to discredit a product... to give informations, Yes, I agree, for people knowing their own taste, I think that it can say a lot about the sound signature...but not to say if it's technically good or bad because we have differents tastes but also our ears react differently to sound.

 

For example, I find the mid/treble transition of the loved heir 5.0 very bad, to much energy and sibillance to my ears making cimbals sound like "TSCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHH"...can I clearly say that they are bad? No...they are to me because of my ears perceptions and sensitivity and taste... but I am not in the Heir 5.0 thread keeping on criticising them....so please STOP taking these graphs like the Holy Bible saying other religions are crap just because you took one verset as THE TRUTH". 

 

Can a graph speake about soundstage, dept, hight, instrument separation, layers, dynamics, fluidity, details and so on? No... so why just keeping on pointing on a dip? To my ear, dip or not, the treble/medium transition on the SM64 is one of the most natural I heard on a Universal IEM.... 

 

For those really interested about ears perceptions/IEM (thank you ClieOS and In Ears Matters to allow people to post this article). 

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?kqgt2ytpu5nk35e


Edited by sly_in_the_sky - 6/27/13 at 12:30am
post #667 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by sly_in_the_sky View Post

If I can say something, with my simple words, I really think people should not only make statements only by looking at graphs.

 

I know that Franck Lopez conceptualize his Iems and Ciems like an artist, using his own ears first and his artistic feeling...he also is musician so his point of view of making Iem is not only a pragmatic/rationnal/graphic concept. I say that for those that read the lasts posts perhaps without knowing that but if a IEM was created with a perfect flat line, it would be awfull for most people to ear it because of the way our ear tend to react with an unnatural way of listening sounds (In EAR put directly sound in the ear).

 

That has been known for a while, that is why the DF curve is created [that is why you see that spike there], similar real-world curve is the newest Olive-Welti curve, considering all the resonance due to having the IEM/headphone placed in the ear. 

 

As you can see, there's not a dip but a big spike in the medium.... to allow our ear also to listen to bass and treble, some companys prefer to dip the medium region...but at the end, the goal is to give a natural sound....

 

The goal of Earsonics like others (if not ALL companys) is just to adapt sound to our ears frequencies reactions, but at the end, to create a realistic sound. 

 

That's the problem, Earsonics failed to do that in a specific region and denied it was a suckout but rather a dip to avoid sibilance, a practice that Westone or Shure do very well, but ES blatantly fails at it with a exaggerated suckout rather than a moderate dip


Edited by Inks - 6/27/13 at 12:29am
post #668 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by sly_in_the_sky View Post

If I can say something, with my simple words, I really think people should not only make statements only by looking at graphs.

 

I know that Franck Lopez conceptualize his Iems and Ciems like an artist, using his own ears first and his artistic feeling...he also is musician so his point of view of making Iem is not only a pragmatic/rationnal/graphic concept. I say that for those that read the lasts posts perhaps without knowing that but if a IEM was created with a perfect flat line, it would be awfull for most people to ear it because of the way our ear tend to react with an unnatural way of listening sounds (In EAR put directly sound in the ear).

 

 

 

As you can see, there's not a dip but a big spike in the medium.... to allow our ear also to listen to bass and treble, some companys prefer to dip the medium region...but at the end, the goal is to give a natural sound....

 

The goal of Earsonics like others (if not ALL companys) is just to adapt sound to our ears frequencies reactions, but at the end, to create a realistic sound. 

 

You can say what you want about this dip in the 5k region, I owned several Hi-end IEM and the medium/treble transition on the SM64 is the sweetest I eard except my EM4/EM6....of course. So please stop using these graphs to discredit a product... to give informations, Yes, I agree, for people knowing their own taste, I think that it can say a lot about the sound signature...but not to say if it's technically good or bad because we have differents tastes but also our ears react differently to sound.

 

For example, I find the mid/treble transition of the loved heir 5.0 very bad...can I clearly say that they are bad? No...they are to me because of my ears perceptions and sensitivity and taste... but I am not in the Heir 5.0 thread keeping on criticising them....so please STOP taking these graphs like an Holy bible saying other religions are crap. 

 

Can a graph speake about soundstage, dept, hight, instrument separation, layers, dynamics, fluidity, details and so on? No... so why just pointing on a dip? To my ear, dip or not, the treble/medium transition is one of the most natural I heard on a Universal IEM.... 

 

For those really interested about ears perceptions/IEM (thank you In Ears Matters). 

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?kqgt2ytpu5nk35e

 

Their statement is that the 5 kHz hurts the IEM (Just FYI, Rin's colored graphs use a curve similar to the one you posted to compensate, I use a similar one as well).  Your information regarding the resonance spike actually backs them up.  I'll agree, that it more likely than not will be negative, but not negative enough to say the whole IEM sucks. 

post #669 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inks View Post

That has been known for a while, that is why the DF curve is created, similar real-world curve is the newest Olive-Welti curve, considering all the resonance due to having the IEM/headphone placed in the ear.

Someone named a graph curve after me? Wow, I feel so honored, whoever it was shouldn't have. The DigitalFreak curve, sort of rolls off the tongue really nice doesn't it. I hope the graph curve picked out was a really funky sounding graph curve so it matchs my character. Hey Inkster, if you happen to know who it was kindly give him/her my thanks and tell them I said I hope they sire a 1000 children.

 

biggrin.giftongue.gif


Edited by DigitalFreak - 6/27/13 at 12:35am
post #670 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post

Someone named a graph curve after me? Wow, I feel so honored, whoever it was shouldn't have. The DigitalFreak curve, sort of rolls off the tongue really nice doesn't it. Hey Inkster, if you happen to know who it was kindly give him/her my thanks and tell them I said I hope they sire a 1000 children.

 

biggrin.giftongue.gif

LOL, but too bad your handle isn't Diffuse-Field.

post #671 of 1359

Inks you are always here criticising products with your graphs arguments...if I remember, don't you also do that in Heir 4AI thread? Sorry if I made a mistake by saying that....

 

And just another question because I prefer to ask it to you instead of searching that in this thread but did you try the SM 64?

 

I THINK THAT PEOPLE NEVER HAVING LISTENED TO A PRODUCT SHOULD NOT SPEAK ABOUT WHAT THEY DONT KNOW AND TRY TO DESTROY COMPANIES USING NOT COMPLETE INFORMATIONS PLEASE....PLEASE STOP YOUR STUPID CRUSADES...FOR WHAT COMPANIES ARE YOU WORKING? IT'S A HOBBY....JUST FOR FUN....PLEASE REMEMBER....

 

I personnaly NEVER said something negative about a product I have never tried...NEVER....!!!!! 


Edited by sly_in_the_sky - 6/27/13 at 12:52am
post #672 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post

Someone named a graph curve after me? Wow, I feel so honored, whoever it was shouldn't have. The DigitalFreak curve, sort of rolls off the tongue really nice doesn't it. I hope the graph curve picked out was a really funky sounding graph curve so it matchs my character. Hey Inkster, if you happen to know who it was kindly give him/her my thanks and tell them I said I hope they sire a 1000 children.

 

biggrin.giftongue.gif

 

 

I always thought "DF curve" stood for Damned Frequency curve.

post #673 of 1359
Originally Posted by sly_in_the_sky View Post

Inks you are always here criticising products with your graphs arguments...if I remember, don't you also do that in Heir 4AI thread? Sorry if I made a mistake by saying that....

 

and just another question because I prefer to ask it to you instead of searching that in this thread but did you try the SM 64?

Yes  and others too, I'm outspoken about my critique. I denied the chance to [one side was potentially faulty anyways], Rin listened to them though and I generally hear as he does, said nice bass, but everything else sucked [but you also have to consider the disclaimer]


Edited by Inks - 6/27/13 at 12:46am
post #674 of 1359
Quote:
Originally Posted by sly_in_the_sky View Post

Inks you are always here criticising products with your graphs arguments...if I remember, don't you also do that in Heir 4AI thread? Sorry if I made a mistake by saying that....

 

and just another question because I prefer to ask it to you instead of searching that in this thread but did you try the SM 64?


Sly, trust me, do not bother...lost cause.

post #675 of 1359

Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

 

I always thought "DF curve" stood for Damned Frequency curve.

lol the same curve FAD finally follows now. 

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