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DAP that leans towards a "warm" sound? - Page 2

post #16 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loquah View Post

Agree. So long as you're not increasing frequencies to unachievable output levels (i.e. increasing levels in the analog stage) then there should be no measurable distortion added.

 

Not sure I've explained that well... What I mean is that most of the quality players out there are able to adjust levels in the digital signal without inducing any clipping or distortion. If in doubt, you can also use your EQ in a subtractive way only (i.e. reduce frequencies only, don't increase them) which will prevent clipping and distortion in my experience. For example, if you want more bass output, you can use your EQ to reduce the high frequencies while leaving bass frequencies at 0dB. This shouldn't introduce unwanted issues.

 

Yep, clipping is the only real danger with a decent eq implementation (like the 24 bit dsp one built into a lot of DAC chips.) And the answer is the same as it always - don't push volume up past your amp will handle - so use negative eq, or adjust volume down if you run into problems.

post #17 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

"Limited" in what way? What you have said is meaningless.

 

And saying that EQ introduces distortion is worse - it's job is to change frequency response, which is what is usually meant by distortion! If you think it introduces some other sort of distortion you'd better be more specific, or people will think you don't know what you are talking about and are reciting "A man down at the pub told me" cliches... Perhaps you mean artefacting? If so, what type of artefacts? 

 

You do know that everything you have listened to from a recording studio has been EQed, yes? And EQing a speaker set-up for a room using pink noise is one of the first things a professional audio engineer will do?


I don't see you getting the exact same sound of a 601 from just using EQ. Sorry. There's more to it than meets the eye. If that wasn't the case then everyone could settle on a Sanas Clip and EQ it to sound like a DX100 or moreso Hifiman could have just skipped using that filter period and used EQ like you suggest.. Do you get my point. The 601 uses a filter to get its unique sound (as well as the DAC used). EQ won't get you the exact same sound. You may be able to get more so on the warmer side, maybe even a similar signature but I don't see the presentation being the same.


Edited by lee730 - 2/17/13 at 6:13pm
post #18 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

Yep, clipping is the only real danger with a decent eq implementation (like the 24 bit dsp one built into a lot of DAC chips.) And the answer is the same as it always - don't push volume up past your amp will handle - so use negative eq, or adjust volume down if you run into problems.

 

Not sure if anyone is interested in this kind of overly technical stuff (so I won't go into much detail), but integrated EQs in DACs are actually fairly uncommon, and usually not all that great.  

 

Theres a few exceptions, but trying to do EQ on a low speed 24 bit DSP doesn't make much sense these days now that players have 32 bit ARM processors (with DSP extensions) running at many hundreds of MHz.  Mostly they're left from the old days when CPUs were very slow and power inefficient.  With modern hardware can get better quality and infinitely more flexibility for less cost just doing it in software on the main CPU. 

 

 

post #19 of 70

hifiman daps or rocco P

 

hifiman daps are as big as a dx100 though

 

edit: i also think nano 6th gen/ipod touch 4th gen and zune players have a warmish sound to them as well


Edited by Dyaems - 2/17/13 at 6:18pm
post #20 of 70

Maybe a tad shorter :P. The newer models are slimmer.
 

post #21 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


I don't see you getting the exact same sound of a 601 from just using EQ.

 

Have you actually tried?  What software and settings did you use?  This should be fairly simple.

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


If that wasn't the case then everyone could settle on a Sanas Clip and EQ it to sound like a DX100 or moreso Hifiman could have just skipped using that filter period and used EQ like you suggest..

 

Ignoring that the point of a highend DAP is the better amplifier capable of driving a wider range of headphones, anyone can do that (assuming the clip is suitable for driving the headphones in the first place at least). 

 

Thats why people make such a big deal about EQ and to a lesser extent Rockbox.  It lets you make precisely these kinds of adjustments.  Perhaps its time for you to do a little reading on how EQ works?  It sounds like you're not really aware of what an EQ does, which is why you're getting so mixed up. 

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


The 601 uses a filter to get its unique sound. EQ won't get you the exact same sound.

 

An EQ is just reprogrammable filter.  If one device can use a filter to produce a given sound, then any good EQ can be programmed to produce the same sound.  Really, this isn't so magical as you seem to think.  Its just basic audio engineering.  

 

I suggest getting some EQ software and trying this for yourself.  Its not so difficult, and will help you understand audio engineernig much better.  

 

post #22 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


Really? I figured Hisound was more on the colder side...

Hifiman 601 is a very warm and musical player.

Yup. I love my hm 601
post #23 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post

 

Have you actually tried?  What software and settings did you use?  This should be fairly simple.

 

 


 

Ignoring that the point of a highend DAP is the better amplifier capable of driving a wider range of headphones, anyone can do that (assuming the clip is suitable for driving the headphones in the first place at least). 

 

Thats why people make such a big deal about EQ and to a lesser extent Rockbox.  It lets you make precisely these kinds of adjustments.  Perhaps its time for you to do a little reading on how EQ works?  It sounds like you're not really aware of what an EQ does, which is why you're getting so mixed up. 

 

 

 


 

An EQ is just reprogrammable filter.  If one device can use a filter to produce a given sound, then any good EQ can be programmed to produce the same sound.  Really, this isn't so magical as you seem to think.  Its just basic audio engineering.  

 

I suggest getting some EQ software and trying this for yourself.  Its not so difficult, and will help you understand audio engineernig much better.  

 

 

Even when I put rockbox on the 601 it didn't sound exactly the same to my ears.  I've tried using EQ on many occasions. It just doesn't work out well for me. I guess I'm just a purist.

post #24 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

 

I've tried using EQ on many occasions. It just doesn't work out well for me. I guess I'm just a purist.

 

Theres no harm in not using EQ.  I certainly don't use it all the time.  My point though was that its interesting to try and replicate the frequency response of a player using a different device, since it gives you more insight into how these things work.  You might, for instance, enjoy trying to get a Sansa Clip or a PC to have the 601's anti-alias filter roll off.  

post #25 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post

 

Theres no harm in not using EQ.  I certainly don't use it all the time.  My point though was that its interesting to try and replicate the frequency response of a player using a different device, since it gives you more insight into how these things work.  You might, for instance, enjoy trying to get a Sansa Clip or a PC to have the 601's anti-alias filter roll off.  


My point is Saratoga I have tried that before in the past. I was never able to get my Fuze to sound exactly like my 601. Even with EQ. As you had mentioned maybe a better EQ could possibly play a roll in this but I still have my doubts even with that. At least in terms of DAPs. On the Desktop or maybe even some sort of special hardware EQ would probably yield better results. Still can you EQ sound staging, imaging, dynamics, bass texture, decay, treble air, micro-detailing, clarity, resolving power. There is much more to it than meets the eye. Now in terms of a general sound like, warmer, colder etc. I can agree. But saying you can get something to sound exactly the same it generalizing it too much as well as over-simplifying the concept.


Edited by lee730 - 2/17/13 at 6:41pm
post #26 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


My point is Saratoga I have tried that before in the past. I was never able to get my Fuze to sound exactly like my 601. Even with EQ

 

What were the settings you used?  From your posts above it sounds like you don't really have much experience with this, so maybe I can give you some advice.  

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post


On the Desktop or maybe even some sort of special hardware EQ would probably yield better results.

 

 

Generally speaking, software EQs work better then hardware EQs since they're more flexible.  But in this case a better EQ isn't really needed.  The 601 has a simple first order butterworth style filter.  Any parametric EQ can precisely reproduce this.  

post #27 of 70
I enjoy using eq... But the one on my hm 601 is never used... I always use line out to my amp...
post #28 of 70

Sorry, just saw your edit:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

 Now in terms of a general sound like, warmer, colder etc. I can agree. But saying you can get something to sound exactly the same it generalizing it too much as well as over-simplifying the concept.

 

 

When you have a pronounced effect like a butterworth filter rolling off treble, subtle things like distortion and stereo separation basically do not matter at all.  Masked by something huge like a filter, the sound of a device basically reduces to very simple things like "warmth".  You have to remove gross differences before subtle effects become apparent. 

 

From your above posts and the general confusion you have about what an EQ does, I suspect you haven't really taken the time to play with the response of a device and how linear effects like equalization play into it.  So I would say that you are probably overestimating what you can actually hear due to inexperience.  Probably you're just hearing the butterworth, and since its such a strong effect, you're not really hearing much else.  


As an interesting experiment to see how this affects your hearing, you could use rockbox's EQ to remove the butterworth on your player.  That should allow you to more completely assess the device and the finer details.  Perhaps not what you want for everyday listening, but very informative.  

post #29 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post

I enjoy using eq... But the one on my hm 601 is never used... I always use line out to my amp...


I used to use the LO all the time as well. Seemed to add more treble extension and improve the sound staging quite a bit. The HO was a tad too warm for my liking. :)

post #30 of 70
I do agree with u

The hm 601 has nevet eqd well...

Even the eq on clean... Sounds bad... So i use line out only
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

Even when I put rockbox on the 601 it didn't sound exactly the same to my ears.  I've tried using EQ on many occasions. It just doesn't work out well for me. I guess I'm just a purist.
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