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If it graphs bad then it is bad; yes or no?

Poll Results: If it graphs bad

 
  • 43% (21)
    Then it is bad
  • 43% (21)
    Then it is probably, but not certainly, bad
  • 12% (6)
    We don't need no steenkin' graphs, hombre!
48 Total Votes  
post #1 of 130
Thread Starter 

 

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/32%20Ohm%20Multi-Armature%20-%20Cowon%20J3%2C%20Sansa%20Clip%2B%2C%20Sony%20A845%2C%20Hifiman%20HM-801.htm

 

For example, you don't need to see anything other than this graph to say "Hell no!" to the idea of paying $800 for an HM801.

post #2 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post




http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/32%20Ohm%20Multi-Armature%20-%20Cowon%20J3%2C%20Sansa%20Clip%2B%2C%20Sony%20A845%2C%20Hifiman%20HM-801.htm

For example, you don't need to see anything other than this graph to say "Hell no!" to the idea of paying $800 for an HM801.

The response is due to the impedance curve of the SE530 load and the 32 ohm output Z of the HM-801. Doesn't seem like the best approach but it may compliment certain headphones in a positive way.

You can get the same approximate result from the Clip by adding a 27 ohm resistor in series with each channel.
post #3 of 130
Thread Starter 

 

 

 

I'm still underwhelmed here.

 

Whereas:

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

You can get the same approximate result from the Clip by adding a 27 ohm resistor in series with each channel.

 

Ok: you are claiming there is zero show at 16 and 32 for the Clip, but that 27 is a magic number where everything goes heywire: what's your evidence for this? In general, the Clip's output impedance is less than 1 ohm, which I thought (based on reading a blog I can't link to.. cough) means that it avoids distortions with headphones as long as their impedance is more than 8 ohms? Plus "If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations" - and the Clip's output impedance is extremely low, into reasonable headphone amp territory.


Edited by scuttle - 2/10/13 at 9:52am
post #4 of 130

I think you should reread that.

 

The response was about getting a similar result by adding a series resistance (say 27 ohms) between a low-Z output and the SE530, not that a 27 ohm load instead of the SE530 would behave a lot differently.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't say that running those IEMs off a high-Z source is a good idea at all (though depending, sometimes it may balance out some sets), but most headphones and IEMs look similarly bad or worse by themselves if you see a FR graph with +/- 3 or 4 dB on the y axis.


Edited by mikeaj - 2/10/13 at 10:07am
post #5 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post








I'm still underwhelmed here.

Whereas:








Ok: you are claiming there is zero show at 16 and 32 for the Clip, but that 27 is a magic number where everything goes heywire: what's your evidence for this? In general, the Clip's output impedance is less than 1 ohm, which I thought (based on reading a blog I can't link to.. cough) means that it avoids distortions with headphones as long as their impedance is more than 8 ohms? Plus "If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. 
The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations
" - and the Clip's output impedance is extremely low, into reasonable headphone amp territory.
The output Z of the Hifiman amp is 32 ohms per their specs. As you say, the output Z of the Clip is under 1 ohm. Adding a series resistor to the Clip output will raise its effective Z to something close to the Hifiman. I picked 27 ohms, not because of magic, but because that's the closest standard 5% resistor value to 32 ohms, you could buy a pair at Radio Shack.
post #6 of 130
This HM-801 appears to have high output impedance and IMO it's likely to sound bad with low impedance single driver dynamic cans.

I don't know how it's going to sound with this IEM because the interactions between amp, crossover networks and subdrivers are quite complicated and the IEM may be tuned to sound reasonably with high-Zout sources. I don't know, I've never owned multiple armature IEMs.


If it measures bad then it is bad, provided that you measure right thing and know how to interpret the results.
post #7 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mich41 View Post

This HM-801 appears to have high output impedance and IMO it's likely to sound bad with low impedance single driver dynamic cans.
 

 

You might even say that this is fair enough... if Hifiman warned sellers than this shouldn't be used to drive such devices. But of course Ety 4x and Shures and Senn 8/80/800s would be exactly what most people would buy it to drive, and afaik there was no such warning.

post #8 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

You might even say that this is fair enough... if Hifiman warned sellers than this shouldn't be used to drive such devices. But of course Ety 4x and Shures and Senn 8/80/800s would be exactly what most people would buy it to drive, and afaik there was no such warning.

Well, now there is warning, plenty of it, just not from the manufacturer. Very few manufacturers warn buyers off their products, unless harm could result from misapplication.

It's not manufacturers responsibility to educate people into becoming informed consumers. That's the consumers responsibility.
post #9 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

 

You might even say that this is fair enough... if Hifiman warned sellers than this shouldn't be used to drive such devices. But of course Ety 4x and Shures and Senn 8/80/800s would be exactly what most people would buy it to drive, and afaik there was no such warning.

 

Yeah, but I'm sure HiFiMAN is wanting them to use the headphones that they make and sell, which won't have any problems with a 32 ohm output impedance.

 

se

post #10 of 130

Yes, it's a bad device especially considering the price. End of story.

post #11 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post


The output Z of the Hifiman amp is 32 ohms per their specs. As you say, the output Z of the Clip is under 1 ohm. Adding a series resistor to the Clip output will raise its effective Z to something close to the Hifiman. I picked 27 ohms, not because of magic, but because that's the closest standard 5% resistor value to 32 ohms, you could buy a pair at Radio Shack.

 

Ok:

 

Firstly, when you are saying something is so and you haven't direct experience I think you should make that clear.

 

Secondly: no. As far the Clip is concerned, a resistance in series is just added to the load - a 16 ohm iem becomes a 43 ohm one.


Edited by scuttle - 2/10/13 at 1:17pm
post #12 of 130
Yes, in terms of a component - amp, dac etc - that is designed for a specific purpose, it is as simple as that.

I don't agree with this recent notion that the same goes for headphones, as that is more subjective, but that's another story...
post #13 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuttle View Post

Ok:

Firstly, when you are saying something is so and you haven't direct experience I think you should make that clear.

Secondly: no. As far the Clip is concerned, a resistance in series is just added to the load - a 16 ohm iem becomes a 33 ohm one.

It's just simple electronics, and yes I do have half a century of experience in that. Since I understand electronic theory I don't need to have my hands on the actual device to predict the result accurately.

No, it doesn't add to the load, you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm on my mobile device now, typing is slow and tedious. If you don't mind, and someone else doesn't straighten this out first, I'll post a better explanation later from the computer with drawings and all.
post #14 of 130

 

Adding a resistor in series increases Zs (the source impedance).

Zl is the load, the headphone driver.

 

edit: Don't look at it from the amp side, but from the load side.


Edited by xnor - 2/10/13 at 1:55pm
post #15 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post


It's just simple electronics, and yes I do have half a century of experience in that. Since I understand electronic theory I don't need to have my hands on the actual device to predict the result accurately.

No, it doesn't add to the load, you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm on my mobile device now, typing is slow and tedious. If you don't mind, and someone else doesn't straighten this out first, I'll post a better explanation later from the computer with drawings and all.

 

Ok. But in this case it looks (ie from xonr's diagram - thanks for that) like adding a resistance in series is has an effect that is never achieved by varying iem resistance (unless maybe you have a very low iem resistance - in this case loweer than 8 ohms, which is not going to happen.) So who cares?

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