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Non-audiophile reactions to high-end headphones Part II - Page 119

post #1771 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post


Nooooo i have to disagree with u on ur last remark....a true audiophile searches for a balanced sound..low-midrange-treble..all mixed into one total package.. Pityfull to achieve that u have to invest BIG..and even then u wont get a perfect balance..but If invested wisely u come close...

Am now listening to E.S. Posthumus.. Never heard of them and found them by accident..but the music they play!! ( instrumental)..if u like a mix with Enya kind of music and classical music with a touch of modern music..try their music..an eyeopener..very relaxing and sometimes very powerful! It has bass, treble, violins, orchestra and sometimes even singing choirs on the background ..it has everything to test ur rig or to just enjoy it like i do now...

 

Yeah but "balance" is such a ridiculously objective term. You can't say "a flat response curve" because by the nature of how our hearing works that would sound terrible (the trebles would be PIERCING). The notion of "balance" really depends on person to person. What is "balanced" to me might sound like a mess of bass to you, and what's balanced to you might sound like it's coming out of an answering machine to me.

 

I do believe in balance (to that extent I don't call myself a basshead), but my definition of "balance" involves a heavy bass response because I view bass as the foundation upon which the music is built. If a kick drum happens and I can't hear the full meat of the impact, there's not enough bass. I'm not asking for my teeth to rattle and for it to feel like I have subwoofers strapped to my head, but like, here's an example:

 

 

All through that track you have powerful basslines and a big kick drum going on. Played through the LCD2s or the HE-400's, all you hear of the kick is the "slap" impact, that beefy "oomph" beneath it? Not really there. And at the 2 minute mark when that bass guitar busts in? You lose a lot of it. "Bass heavy" to me would be listening to that and hearing only the kick drum and the bassline. "Balanced" to me means hearing the kick/bass strongly right alongside everything else. Didn't get that with the opens. 

post #1772 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

- audiophiles do not necessarily have to search for a perfectly neutral sound, they just search for what sounds best to them
- audiophilia is a hardware-driven hobby; no matter how mad people get at that idea.  by definition audiophiles are hi-fi enthusiasts, and you need hardware for that.  It's also upgrades in hardware that keeps their personal journey alive until they've reached a point where it's almost impossible to spend more.
- you don't have to spend big bucks for balance (hd600, focal spirit pro)
- if achieving perfect balance was the end-goal for the audiophile then there would only be those two topics on head-fi... and a couple others

I agree there's hypocrisy when a self-proclaimed audiophile blindly shuns something bass bloated like the Beats then by the same token Go listen to their treble cannon Beyerdynamic, Grado, Ultrasone, etc.
+1 i totally agree..as me i am on my road to audiophilia also... And i recognize a lot of what u just said..the long (and expensive) search for what i want in my listening experience...and i think i found the end station fase now headphone/ amp wise..now its time to take a turn to speaker land.. wink.gif
post #1773 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

 

I agree there's hypocrisy when a self-proclaimed audiophile blindly shuns something bass bloated like the Beats then by the same token Go listen to their treble cannon Beyerdynamic, Grado, Ultrasone, etc.

 

That's really what irks me. To me, I would way rather have Beats or Monsters over the Grado RS1. Those things just sounded like screaming trebles with nothing else happening. I was genuinely SHOCKED at how tinny and sharp they were. I started laughing when the track I played hit the bassline and NOTHING happened.

 

But no, people call those "lifelike" and "reference" while Monster headphones are "consumer crap". Right. :rolleyes:

post #1774 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

 

You're a basshead.  Nothing wrong with it though.

post #1775 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

 

 

I do believe in balance (to that extent I don't call myself a basshead), but my definition of "balance" involves a heavy bass response because I view bass as the foundation upon which the music is built. If a kick drum happens and I can't hear the full meat of the impact, there's not enough bass. I'm not asking for my teeth to rattle and for it to feel like I have subwoofers strapped to my head, but like, here's an example:

 

 

 

All through that track you have powerful basslines and a big kick drum going on. Played through the LCD2s or the HE-400's, all you hear of the kick is the "slap" impact, that beefy "oomph" beneath it? Not really there. And at the 2 minute mark when that bass guitar busts in? You lose a lot of it. "Bass heavy" to me would be listening to that and hearing only the kick drum and the bassline. "Balanced" to me means hearing the kick/bass strongly right alongside everything else. Didn't get that with the opens. 

Really nice and fun song, firstly.

 

Secondly, through my Stax I hear all the meat to the bass, which I know for a fact the LCD-2 can extend as deep

and has more slam. At that 2 minute mark where bass guitar kicks in, nothing is lost either. I can see how the LCD-2 has shelved treble, but saying you lose a lot it, I just can't see.

 

Which headphone(s) provide more of that meat thoroughly and yet retain all of that bass guitar section compared

to the LCD-2 and HE-400?

post #1776 of 4637

I get where somebody would describe a lot of headphones as bass anemic with the song though.  That kick drum isn't really mixed to be too deep sounding or bassy.  Hearing mostly the slap of the kick drum isn't the headphone's fault, it's just per the song.  The actual bass-line is perfectly legible though.

post #1777 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

 

 

You're a basshead.  Nothing wrong with it though.

 

I'm not because I believe a basshead values bass output above all else. I do not. I'm not gonna enjoy a set of headphones that blast bass at me, no matter how meaty and powerful it is, unless the rest of the spectrum is present, accounted for, clean, and shimmery. I wouldn't have the M100s if I was just a basshead because I've had three sets that had more of a low-end output (Monster DNA, Monster N-Tunes, Beats Mixrs) and didn't spend this much on any of them. If I just wanted powerful bass I'd have kept the NTunes because they were a quarter what I paid for the M100s (counting the XL pads). 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

Really nice and fun song, firstly.

 

Secondly, through my Stax I hear all the meat to the bass, which I know for a fact the LCD-2 can extend as deep

and has more slam. At that 2 minute mark where bass guitar kicks in, nothing is lost either. I can see how the LCD-2 has shelved treble, but saying you lose a lot it, I just can't see.

 

Which headphone(s) provide more of that meat thoroughly and yet retain all of that bass guitar section compared

to the LCD-2 and HE-400?

 

M100s, Shure SRH1540, Denon D7100. The Sennheiser HD800s actually did pretty well also. The LCD2 did not. Yes, if you listen close, you can hear a tone, but it had nothing compared to the cymbals, guitar, or glitch sounds. I sat there, with that track specifically, trying so hard to get the full experience out of the LCD2s, and it just was not happening. The note existed, it was just limp and lifeless.

 

That's the issue I keep having. People say "Headphone X had deep bass extension" which is... true, but not a useful observation. Yeah, it can play those notes, it just has zero authority. Try hip hop with those things. And when I say hip hop, I mean the kind that people blast while riding through town in a car with a sound system that cost more than the car itself. The kind that should make rear view mirrors vibrate. 

 

What I'm getting at with all of this is that the "non-audiophile reactions" to high-end headphones is really dependent upon what kind of headphones you give them and what kind of music they listen to. Think of it like this:

 

1) Classical/jazz fan, Stax/Audeze headphone, classical/jazz music - THESE ARE AMAZING

 

2) Rap/metal fan, Stax/Audeze headphone, classical/jazz music - If I liked this kind of music these would probably be amazing. 

 

3) Classical/jazz fan, Stax/Audeze headphone, rap/metal music - Headphones are great but I don't like this music. 

 

4) Rap/metal fan, Stax/Audeze headphone, rap/metal music - These sound like CRAP, there's no low end!

 

5) Classical/Jazz fan, Denon/VModa headphone, classical/jazz music- These sound like CRAP, the bass is all blown out!

 

6) Rap/metal fan, Denon/Vmoda headphone, classical/jazz music - Headphones are great but I don't like this music.

 

7) Classical/Jazz fan, Denon/Vmoda headphone, rap/metal music - if I liked this kind of music these would probably be amazing.

 

8) Rap/metal fan, Denon/Vmoda headphone, rap/metal music - THESE ARE AMAZING

 

Just a thought.

post #1778 of 4637

Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

 

I get where somebody would describe a lot of headphones as bass anemic with the song though.  That kick drum isn't really mixed to be too deep sounding or bassy.  Hearing mostly the slap of the kick drum isn't the headphone's fault, it's just per the song.  The actual bass-line is perfectly legible though.

 

 

Anemic compared to bloaty and messy.

 

He said I'm not looking for teeth-rattling bass, just balanced, plentiful bass, no? 

 

The LCD-2's can rock that song out quite well. And if not, compared to what.


Edited by paradoxper - 3/13/14 at 7:40pm
post #1779 of 4637

Well, I understand where you are coming from as far as asking for a headphone with lifelike bass, however, I agree with the audiophiles on this one.  Show me a headphone with bass that is so strong that it 'rattles' the headphones, and I will show you a headphone with ridiculously low quality.  Would be better off attaching 2 of these to your head, one on either side http://www.thebuttkicker.com/gaming/

 

The reason that headphones do not have headphone rattling bass is because of headphone limitations.  To create that much bass would require a 'subwoofer' in the headphones, somewhere, I'm not entirely sure where one would stick it.  I guess you could say its kinda like the 'brilliant' people who cant get groceries in the trunks of their cars because the entire trunk is filled with a oversized subwoofer.  I laugh as they try to drive home with their groceries in their laps.  

 

Hyperbole and exaggerations aside, there are some fabulous headphones with a good mix of both, I love the bass on the Grado PS1000, it has plenty of thump to give weight to the music, although maybe not as deep as I would like sometimes.  I've heard of several that are equally satisfying.  Closed backs increase the amount of bass, but not necessarily in a good way, because you end up with bloomy type reverb bass, which if pushed hard enough becomes mud.  Now, the question becomes why does too much bass seem to overcome the mids and the high's in things such as beats, and the answer is that more bass doesnt necessary overcome the balance against the mids and highs, but rather the mids and high's are sacrificed to make a driver that can deliver that much bass.  Meaning that you lose fidelity in the mids and highs.  If you were to take a beats and eq the bass out, you would know of which I speak.  

Maybe one day we will figure out how to make a small driver shake someones head, and still properly reproduce mids and highs, but as for now the technology is not quite there.  I repair air conditions and heating for a living, and I will attest that there are a lot of unreasonable people who wholeheartedly believe that the little thing on the wall is what cools and heats the house...I'm not joking. 

post #1780 of 4637

I'll make this short.

 

It's actually not hard to make the ear cup vibrate. 

 

Didn't say I wanted my teeth to rattle.

 

Stick with me here. 

post #1781 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

 

I get where somebody would describe a lot of headphones as bass anemic with the song though.  That kick drum isn't really mixed to be too deep sounding or bassy.  Hearing mostly the slap of the kick drum isn't the headphone's fault, it's just per the song.  The actual bass-line is perfectly legible though.

 

 

Anemic compared to bloaty and messy.

 

He said I'm not looking for teeth-rattling bass, just balanced, plentiful bass, no? 

 

The LCD-2's can rock that song out quite well. And if not, compared to what.

 

I just heard that song and it does not sound great with my T5p...the M100 would be a better choice.

 

Jazz (instrumental) sounds great with my T5p...it would sound like crap with the M100.

 

You have to arm yourself with the right equipment for the type of music you like best.  I guess that is why many HD800 users also own a second pair of open cans (something like the HD650)...so they can tackle any music genre.


Edited by elvergun - 3/13/14 at 8:00pm
post #1782 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvergun View Post
 

 

I just hear that song and it does not sound great with my T5p...the M100 would be a better choice.

 

Jazz (instrumental) sounds great with my T5p...it would sound like crap with the M100.

 

You have to arm yourself with the right equipment for the type of music you like best.  I guess that is why many HD800 own a second pair of open cans (something like the HD650)...so they can tackle any music genre.

 

THANK you. I'm glad to see some people are understanding what's happening here.

 

People are taking my "the Audeze are bass-light" and immediately leaping to the irrational instead of going "hm, I wonder what headphone in that price range isn't bass light by his standards?" to which I quickly respond, something like the Denon D7100. The Shure SRH1540 are also more what I'd call "balanced". If you want to WOW someone who thinks Beats are the bee's knees, paying open-back planars is a failed venture. They are not going to enjoy that because they're not going to enjoy the kind of music those headphones are built towards. 

 

I'm serious, you wanna try something out? Play this on your open-backs (warning, NSFW language):

 

 

Now keep in mind, that track is supposed to SLAM. The bass is supposed to SHAKE you. That's the kind of song that makes rear view mirrors fall of with burly car systems. Fired through the Grado PS500s or the HE-400s? The bassline was nothing. Just a note. A quiet little low note. Sad. 

post #1783 of 4637
I dont wanna start a new debate..but...people..u all forget what makes a headphone sound powerful and what can break or shine a good headphone..THE AMP AND DAC..if u want powerful sound(within the charactistics of the individual phone ofcourse) u have to invest in the right stuff around the HP.. to be honest..ur the first saying the bass on a lcd 2.2 is anomenic..i listened to one on a powerful amp and quality dac and unheilig and within temptation sounded low and powerful on that phone..to be honest it had best and lowest bass on the meet..even lower then some denon d7000...i think good sound comes from the right package..a phone alone cant do it..if u believe that then ur hallucinating... get urself the right amp and u will see HP's u thought were pityful with bass will surprise u...the lcd was not my style soundwise as its dark..but bass was best i ever heard on a headphone...controlled and deep.. but u need some balls heavy amp behind it.
The clip sounds shiit..u cant honestly believe to make a opinion listening to such a bad sounding clip...but no worries idownloaded a good quality lossless rip..and i can tell ya..my open backed headphone made my head tremble... so what u say about open headphines being bad in bass is not true..okay mine is a limited modified headphone.but still its open..and trust me..and i heard denons and grados and audezes etc..and this open phone goes one on one with the best of them basswise..and its also because of the huge headroom (650.000uF) my little new amp has...and the power helpa also a bit being 5.28w into 50ohm... i listened to same phone for 4 weeks on a cheap weak amp until this amp came in..and bass was nonexisting..and i mean..NON! Now with this new amp..the phone pumps out music with a power and control u wont believe...
Edited by hifimanrookie - 3/13/14 at 8:13pm
post #1784 of 4637

I digress.

 

You want to say the LCD-2 is bass light, I'll take its quality over those aforementioned, which fall apart. Horses for courses. I'm not a basshead.


Edited by paradoxper - 3/13/14 at 8:03pm
post #1785 of 4637
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post

I dont wanna start a new debate..but...people..u all forget what makes a headphone sound powerful and what can break or shine a good headphone..THE AMP AND DAC..if u want powerful sound(within the charactistics of the individual phone ofcourse) u have to invest in the right stuff around the HP.. to be honest..ur the first saying the bass on a lcd 2.2 is anomenic..i listened to one on a powerful amp and quality dac and unheilig and within temptation sounded low and powerful on that phone..to be honest it had best and lowest bass on the meet..even lower then some denon d7000...i think good sound comes from the right package..a phone alone cant do it..if u believe that then ur hallucinating... get urself the right amp and u will see HP's u thought were pityful with bass will surprise u...the lcd was not my style soundwise as its dark..but bass was best i ever heard on a headphone...controlled and deep.. but u need some balls heavy amp behind it.

 

Was using a Burson Conductor. So... wanna try that again?

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