New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Phonak Audeo to close down? - Page 8

post #106 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantScareMe View Post

I own both

 

As I said earlier in this thread, the time between when I wake up and when I sleep, I have the pfe's wired on to me! Before the 232's it was the 112's that I used to use for many hours in the day.

Nothing burned in backwards (akg k550 are the only headphones that have exhibited this in my experience, which required a re-burn in (again without me listening to it) to sound right). I 're-burned' in the 112's later to see if this was an issue but found no difference that I could speak of. 

 

When talking about burn in, It don't matter how long one has had a headphone for - I've over 30 pairs on me right now and the one I've had the longest has been used the least (senn mx980). It's burn in hours (pink noise if possible) that makes the difference. Having it playing a constant loop of pink noise for a week puts 12 times more burn in hours than if one was to use this for 2 hours a day for a week. Another factor like you mentioned was the tips. And just for the record, If ever I test two earphones I use the same ear tips. Otherwise it's not a test.

 

With the phonk 232's the supplied eartips I found to be of poor quality (pop in my ears) and I pretty much instantly began using these earphones with spare phonak 112 tips. Now I use them with klipsch gel medium single flange eartips which fit and sound the best (for both phonak earphones actually - brings out the clarity/air of the midrange)

 

Can you clarify which pfe112 "spare tips" you have?  The pfe232 and pfe112 tips are identical.  They are the exact same model silicon tips in different colors.  Black for 232 white for 112.  They are identical tips though.  As are the foam that come with each, which are comply t-130 tips.  Perhaps you had an imperfect tip or something, but otherwise you switched to the same tips?

 

As for the break-in, from my experience I simply don't believe it exists, or don't believe you are really hearing what you think you are.  Rather, I believe you might be hearing break in of how you perceive the sound, as in where you get used to a sound.  12 hours or 2000 hours, doesn't matter.  I've had a very large number of earphones and headphones over the last 25 years and not a single one ever showed even the slightest change in sound in any way after long break in periods.  The only difference they ever experienced was caused by the tips becoming softer and fitting better or the muffs wearing out or things like that.  Once those replaceable components are swapped the sound is back to what it was before they degraded.  And even then the changes are always very small.

 

I know you don't agree, and you say you've compared them before and after, but I've done the same with opposite results.  Simply put, I don't believe in break-in, but I do believe in the power of the mind to make use think we hear what we think we hear.  I simply recommend anyone that buy them keep them based solely on how they sound when you get them.  Give your mind time to get used to them of course, as your impression of a sound can change as you become familiar with it.  However, once you are familiar with them mentally you should be able to determine if they are to your liking.  All we both can do is recommend people try them themselves and come to their own conclusion.

 

Bottom line, as I always say, is to enjoy your gear.  The good thing about what you are saying is that it doesn't hurt anything.  Run noise through them.  Give them "break-in" time.  What would it hurt?  If you listen to them, compare them to something you're very familiar with before and after and not just quickly, but spending time with each.  If you find they are difference after break-in, enjoy them.  If you don't, decide if you like them or not.  But find one you enjoy and listen to it all the time. :-)

post #107 of 121
With thanks to CantScareMe got in touch with Phonak Switzerland who offered a free replacement cable as I am within 2 year warranty. That is until hifiheadphones said they would sort me out. Awesome!

As an aside asked Phonak how long they would have parts for and was told "spring 2015"
post #108 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFC_SL View Post

With thanks to CantScareMe got in touch with Phonak Switzerland who offered a free replacement cable as I am within 2 year warranty. That is until hifiheadphones said they would sort me out. Awesome!

As an aside asked Phonak how long they would have parts for and was told "spring 2015"

Great stuff!

post #109 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post

 

Can you clarify which pfe112 "spare tips" you have?  The pfe232 and pfe112 tips are identical.  

 

The grey ones with the 112/022 are not identical to the stock 232 ones. They fit the nozzle differently, are of a different density and very very slightly of a different shape.

 

As for the break-in, from my experience I simply don't believe it exists, or don't believe you are really hearing what you think you are.  Rather, I believe you might be hearing break in of how you perceive the sound, as in where you get used to a sound.  

 

I find it impossible to get used to a sound when I have allowed myself exactly 0 hours to do so. This is the central message I am trying to convey. Let's take the k167 as an example. With every factor the same, especially volume of media player, my burnt in k550 had more sub-bass and bass quantity than the k167. This was true for all 10 or so tracks I listened to. 1 hour I listened at a maximum.

Leaving both to burn in over three weeks, I revisit them. I haven't physically touched either headphone in that period, so it would be a miracle if my brain has got used to the signature over these weeks. When I listen to them this time, under the exact same conditions, exact same player (exact same volumes, music, location, chair, hair style, time of day....) the k167 has more bass in quantity. The difference is clear. Night and day.

 

When someone experienced on these forums talks about 'headphone A' having more/less bass quantity than 'headphone B', after comparing them with 10 tracks and coming to the same conclusion 10 times, I don't have much reason to doubt that headphone A has more/less bass than B in that exact same setup. 

 

There's actually little expectational bias here. I've done this test many many times on headphones, using a different headphone as a comparison tool to determine burn in effects. Most times I come up with nothing (small indefinite shifts toward/away from the test headphones sound signature - no intersections). The senn momentum, sony mdr1r, fostex mad dog, senn ie800 are just a few, where this has happened. I can add the T1 to this 'non-burn in' list too. It probably has benefited from burn in but as I had nothing to compare it to, I'm not sure where exactly it has - I'm just going from memory.  

 

 

 

post #110 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantScareMe View Post
The grey ones with the 112/022 are not identical to the stock 232 ones. They fit the nozzle differently, are of a different density and very very slightly of a different shape.  You must have an irregular set of tips.  I have had the pfe232 on two different occasions and I also own the pfe112 and pfe022.  I've very carefully compared the tips many times and mine are identical.  I've also asked Sandra from audeoworld operations and she confirmed that all of the tips AND accessories/filters for every pfe model are identical.  You must simply have a slightly irregular set of tips.  And even if they are slightly irregular, they'd have to be fairly different for them to affect the sound audibly.

 

As for the break-in, from my experience I simply don't believe it exists, or don't believe you are really hearing what you think you are.  Rather, I believe you might be hearing break in of how you perceive the sound, as in where you get used to a sound.  

 

I find it impossible to get used to a sound when I have allowed myself exactly 0 hours to do so. This is the central message I am trying to convey.

 

I agree completely, and that was part of my point as well.

 

Let's take the k167 as an example. With every factor the same, especially volume of media player, my burnt in k550 had more sub-bass and bass quantity than the k167. This was true for all 10 or so tracks I listened to. 1 hour I listened at a maximum.

Leaving both to burn in over three weeks, I revisit them. I haven't physically touched either headphone in that period, so it would be a miracle if my brain has got used to the signature over these weeks. When I listen to them this time, under the exact same conditions, exact same player (exact same volumes, music, location, chair, hair style, time of day....) the k167 has more bass in quantity. The difference is clear. Night and day.

 

First, I never said it didn't exist "ever".  I merely said that I don't believe it exists, and part of the reason for this belief is that through my very extensive comparisons of all my earphones/headphones I've never detected any change in the drivers themselves.

 

However, what I would believe happened, and I know you won't agree, is that you expected to hear a difference after breaking them in (a good reason to go through the 'process') and therefore you heard what you thought you would hear.  This is a very common situation, but unfortunately people don't admit it.  It happens to me now and then, but I'm aware of it and with practice you can realize what is occurring and sort of ignore the effect.  Even then our minds are very powerful.  The only true way to know is a double blind test, which a lot of people refuse to do, because they think so strongly that they hear something so why would they need to test it?  Unfortunately, this belief strengthens the mind's ear and you are even more sure you hear what you think you hear.  This has been scientifically shown to happen with audio listening.

 

There are only two other alternative I can think of.  First, even though you didn't wear them more than an hour, the soft material came into contact with your hair oils and even though you removed the headphones, the oils remained and continued to soften the material over time.  Next time you used them the softer material would form better to your skin and make a tighter seal which would absolutely increase sub bass audibility.

 

When someone experienced on these forums talks about 'headphone A' having more/less bass quantity than 'headphone B', after comparing them with 10 tracks and coming to the same conclusion 10 times, I don't have much reason to doubt that headphone A has more/less bass than B in that exact same setup. 

 

Again, if you believe it so strongly you're more likely to "hear" it.

 

There's actually little expectational bias here. I've done this test many many times on headphones, using a different headphone as a comparison tool to determine burn in effects. Most times I come up with nothing (small indefinite shifts toward/away from the test headphones sound signature - no intersections). The senn momentum, sony mdr1r, fostex mad dog, senn ie800 are just a few, where this has happened. I can add the T1 to this 'non-burn in' list too. It probably has benefited from burn in but as I had nothing to compare it to, I'm not sure where exactly it has - I'm just going from memory.  

 

Finally, as I said before, I'm not dismissing the possibility that burn in could 'ever' happen.  I'm simply stating that "I" don't believe it does, at least not in 99% of devices.  What makes me so strongly believe this is your post exactly.  You are arguing for the case of burn-in with the pfe232, and my testing shows absolutely no burn-in other than tip wear.  So, if you believe so strongly the pfe232 has burn-in and I have tested with the opposite results, I don't have much faith in the other burn-in reports you give.

 

Please, don't take this to mean I'm calling you a lier or being rude or anything.  That's not it at all.  I'm just voicing my side of the opinion on burn-in.  I merely have heard things that lead me to my assessment on the subject and you've heard things that led you to your assessment on the subject.

 

It's obviously a pretty controversial topic.  There has been no scientific proof of any burn-in one way or the other.  So, I recommend again that everyone try it themselves.  It doesn't hurt anything, so why not?  I simply don't feel the need to myself. :-)

 

But back to the original point that led into all of this:  even with a noticeable change in the pfe232, their signature wouldn't change from that of one earphone to that of another.  That would be pretty drastic.  So listen to them and break them in, break in the tips, your brain and run them for hours if you wish.  At that point, you should know if you like them or not.  But it's always good to have a well known reference point.  An old earphone or speaker or something that you're familiar with as a reference point.  That will help you decide.

 


Edited by luisdent - 7/8/13 at 8:35pm
post #111 of 121

Does anyone have Phonak's email address? I want to contact them about a cable...

 

Thanks,

 

Steve from NYC

post #112 of 121

You guys have your opinions and I have mine.  I did the same thing you did and more testing tracks, waited.  RE-BOUGHT the pfe232 repeated, had them a long time used them just as many hours or more and then compared again.  Etc. etc.  I never detected an ounce of burn-in.  I'm very familiar with placebo type effects and can actually pass some tests that most people fail because of these effects.  So I don't think that is an issue here.  Plus, the point is moot anyway, because you can say i'm hearing no difference because i believe it so strongly, and you could be hearing a difference because you believe it so strongly.

 

As for a bunch of people on the forum saying this or that, I don't believe it matters.  You need to take all the facts and knowledge you've acquired into account and make the best decisions you can about what information to use from opinions on any forums.  I believe most people hear burn-in because they are listening for it and think they hear it.  I don't believe it exists in a large majority, if not any, earphones or headphones.  I've tested a large quantity and none have experienced any burn-in at all OTHER THAN the small changes in sound from things like tips or earpads wearing in, softening up and making better seals.  Or an earphone simply changing sound based on the source or amp you connect it to.  There are many variables, many opinions and beliefs, and I think that all causes people to "hear" these differences that don't exist.

 

If you believe it exists, than by all means take the time to burn-in your phones.  It doesn't hurt anything.  That's your call.  I also can't say that not a single phone in the world has burn-in.  Obviously I haven't tried every phone in the world.  But I haven't found one that does yet.  I personally research as much scientific info as I can and using real life listening experience with those research findings it is very unlikely there is any change.  Especially to the levels people describe where it is at all noticeable.

 

Again, I've done the same exact tests and come out with a different conclusion.  I find it more likely that someone is hearing a change in sound that isn't there, rather than someone hearing no change in sound when there is one.  But again, it doesn't matter.  If you think it could exist than just burn in your phones and listen for yourself.  If you hear it, good, write me off as a looney and move on.  :-P


Edited by luisdent - 9/27/13 at 3:38pm
post #113 of 121

Hey guys, I filled out a contact form on Phonak website a couple days ago, here's the response I got from their Central Order Processing guy:

 

Quote:
The apologize to inform you that Phonak AG has discontinued the production and distribution 
of Phonak Audeo PFE earphones and spare parts since 31st March 2013. 

Thank you for your understanding. 

 

Period.

What can I say, for shame, Phonak..

post #114 of 121

Looks like we got to treat our PFEs like soft tofu....be very very gentle or else..... :D

post #115 of 121

Is there anyway I can find a replacement cable for the 232 :(( ?

post #116 of 121
Try contacting a phonak dealer, they may have stockpiled spares and parts

Not in USA myself but maybe earphonesolutions worth a try??
post #117 of 121
Audeoworld.com?
post #118 of 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherlockaled View Post
 

Is there anyway I can find a replacement cable for the 232 :(( ?

 

 

You may want to check this post

 

Please let us know if you succeed

post #119 of 121

Do you have the contact info for phonak?

post #120 of 121

Hi

 

I own PFE 112 since years, but the cable hardened during time and provoqued a bad connexion, a well known problem from first series I believe.

 

I contacted a few days ago Phonak at this email adress : Operations.Audeoworld@phonak.com, asking how to get a replacement cable, they replied this :

 

We regret to inform you that Phonak AG has discontinued the production and distribution of Phonak Audeo PFE as well as spare parts,
therefore no more sales are possible.

 

So, what now ? I love those IEM, their natural balanced sound, their comfortable feeling in my ears, their filter system, before buying them, I tried a lot others, even more expensive ones, and they clearly were better to me in any aspect.

 

I'd like to replace the cable, I believe any other IEM cable would do it, do you have any suggestion ?

 

I had a look at the monitors, they don't look dismountable, I don't know how to proceed.

 

In the event I couldn't replace the cable or break a monitor during operation, do you have any suggestion for another product with a comparable sound ?

 

Thanks for your help

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav: