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Do bassy HP's with neutral mids and highs even exist?

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 

Ok, let's say price isn't a big concern. Does there is such thing: strong deep bass (with bigger impact than on dt770) and at the same time, mids and treble aren't recessed in any way with at least average soundstage, but closed type? 

Maybe 2-way drivers or smth?


Edited by SmOgER - 2/1/13 at 3:35am
post #2 of 36

I'd say headphones like Q40 and M100 comes to my mind. Not sure how the mids compare in forwardness vs Q40 but Q40's mids & highs sounds on a neutral while bass is boosted. Needs some amping to experience  the best out of it.

 

Goldenears measurement sounds exactly how I interpret Q40's balance sonically if the green line would represent "neutrality":

 

 

Out of box you can hear the 9kHz spike but it settles over time, I remember this very well that some sound effects I thought was slightly harsh in some games isn't at all anymore.

 

Then again soundstage is not large at all and it has poor highs extension on Q40, so not sure if those all factors exists in one package, maybe M100 comes closest, it has a larger soundstage than Q40. I have high hopes for NAD Viso HP50 that isn't released yet to fit this bill, it's said to be a slightly bassier PSB M4U 1 which sounds like a perfect option for me too. I haven't seen any graph of M4U1 but M4U2 should be roughly the same

 

 

On innerfidelity's graphs you have to skew the line slightly downwards somewhere after around 1-2kHz to get a more accurate view of how close to "neutral" level (and comparable to goldenears' way of presenting the data), uppermids and highs are like the drawn green line, exactly how much to skew it downwards is just a guess unfortunately.

 

However M4U-2 while not looking like having much less bass than Q40, only about 1dB difference, the difference is in how tight and resonance free the bass is, the M4U is tighter and less resonant of that Q40's bass so it sounds like it's a bit less bassy than what the graphs would compare like so I wouldn't quite think M4U's bass quantity satisfies the people looking for DT770 Pro levels of bass but hopefully the to be launched NAD Viso HP50 takes care of exactly this while staying reasonably close to M4U 1 or 2's mids & highs because this is a very nicely measuring headphone.

 

Anyway if you DO FIND such headphone, please share. xD


Edited by RPGWiZaRD - 2/1/13 at 4:12am
post #3 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmOgER View Post

Ok, let's say price isn't a big concern. Does there is such thing: strong deep bass (with bigger impact than on dt770) and at the same time, mids and treble aren't recessed in any way with at least average soundstage, but closed type? 

Maybe 2-way drivers or smth?

 

Not likely. It would be easier to add a subwoofer to your listening room.

 

Assuming dt770-80 pros, if you feel there isn't enough impact there you may have hearing issues. I'd suggest if you want something that specialized you look into equalizers.

post #4 of 36

No, that's not possible. If nothing is recessed then it's all neutral. A boost in bass is the same thing as a recession in mids and treble.

post #5 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post

 

Not likely. It would be easier to add a subwoofer to your listening room.

 

Assuming dt770-80 pros, if you feel there isn't enough impact there you may have hearing issues. I'd suggest if you want something that specialized you look into equalizers.

 

 

Well, there are different opinions on these DT770, personally I listened to them for only quite a short time, so maybe you're right. Let's say then bass equal to these, at least.

post #6 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy4 View Post

No, that's not possible. If nothing is recessed then it's all neutral. A boost in bass is the same thing as a recession in mids and treble.

That's what was fcuking my mind. If you make bass stronger, mids and highs somehow SHOULD became quiter than normal. But again, if the bass is well controlled and/or if drivers are 2-way with seperate bass port(driver), so bass would be kicking only when needed and wouldn't have negative impact on other frequencies quality, from this perspective it looks like it should be possible.. I mean, if you f.e. add subwoofer to your speaker system, you aren't losing overall clarity.


Edited by SmOgER - 2/1/13 at 5:45am
post #7 of 36

Have you tried monitor phones that are bass-capable? My personal favorites are DT250's, but there are plenty of other options for less money these days.

 

I'm old, so I listen to old man music - one of my test tracks, "Angel" by Massive Attack sounds rather excellent on a headphone like the DT-250, and was just over the top ridiculous on the DT770. About the only things that sounded good on the DT770 to my ears were older/bad recordings that were missing low end. 

post #8 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmOgER View Post

That's what was fcuking my mind. If you make bass stronger, mids and highs somehow SHOULD became quiter than normal. But again, if the bass is well controlled and/or if drivers are 2-way with seperate bass port(driver), so bass would be kicking only when needed and wouldn't have negative impact on other frequencies quality, from this perspective it looks like it should be possible.. I mean, if you f.e. add subwoofer to your speaker system, you aren't losing overall clarity.

Well most bass sounds quieter to the ear(take a look at the equal loudness curve) than pretty much anything else below 20kHz, so you can boost it up a good deal without noticing it interfere with the other frequencies.

 

So maybe something that has a bass boost without bleeding in too much past 200Hz would sound like the mids and highs are still neutral.

post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 

Well the thing is, those hearing differences across frequencies are already compensated when making music in the first place. People are not robots. biggrin.gif

post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmOgER View Post

Well the thing is, those hearing differences across frequencies are already compensated when making music in the first place. People are not robots. biggrin.gif

True, most people aren't.

post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmOgER View Post

Ok, let's say price isn't a big concern. Does there is such thing: strong deep bass (with bigger impact than on dt770) and at the same time, mids and treble aren't recessed in any way with at least average soundstage, but closed type? 

Maybe 2-way drivers or smth?

 

Well, I had thought that such a thing doesn't exist as well... until I found the Audio Technica ATH-ES10.

 

In Headfonia's review:

http://www.headfonia.com/audio-technica-es10/3/

Quote:
Audio Technica certainly doesn’t waste the potential of the 53mm driver, as the first impression from the ES10 is that it has the strongest bass punch out of any portable I’ve tried. Forget portables altogether, cause the ES10′s bass goes even harder than Sennheiser’s HD650!

 

And that's actually true, by the way. A portable can with more bass impact than a full-size can.

 

It doesn't have as much bass texture or low bass rumble as the DT770, though. But that's probably why it has such insane impact. Less sub bass = cleaner sound = more distinct impact.


Edited by Bill-P - 2/1/13 at 10:16am
post #12 of 36

Bassy HP's with neutral mids and highs might not exist by definition, but it is very possible to moderately emphasize the bass in a headphone without muddying up the midrange. The key is not to go crazy with the bass emphasis (some headphones have a 12+ dB bass boost) and keep the center frequency of the bass hump low, so that the response returns to flat at ~300 Hz. Some bass-heavy cans will keep the boost going until 500, or even 1000 Hz. 

 

A related question: Do headphones with neutral highs even exist? Every time I look at a headphone's frequency graph, there is a treble peak between 5 and 10 kHz. My white box ATH-M50s have a relatively neutral response, except for that glaring (pun intended) 8 dB spike at ~9 kHz!

post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythm is life View Post

Bassy HP's with neutral mids and highs might not exist by definition, but it is very possible to moderately emphasize the bass in a headphone without muddying up the midrange. The key is not to go crazy with the bass emphasis (some headphones have a 12+ dB bass boost) and keep the center frequency of the bass hump low, so that the response returns to flat at ~300 Hz. Some bass-heavy cans will keep the boost going until 500, or even 1000 Hz. 

 

A related question: Do headphones with neutral highs even exist? Every time I look at a headphone's frequency graph, there is a treble peak between 5 and 10 kHz. My white box ATH-M50s have a relatively neutral response, except for that glaring (pun intended) 8 dB spike at ~9 kHz!

 

ATH-M50s have never been close to neutral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

 

Well, I had thought that such a thing doesn't exist as well... until I found the Audio Technica ATH-ES10.

 

In Headfonia's review:

http://www.headfonia.com/audio-technica-es10/3/

 

And that's actually true, by the way. A portable can with more bass impact than a full-size can.

 

It doesn't have as much bass texture or low bass rumble as the DT770, though. But that's probably why it has such insane impact. Less sub bass = cleaner sound = more distinct impact.


I can't comment on the ATH-ES10, because I haven't heard them yet, but the quote from that review is just nonsense tbh. If that reviewer thinks that the HD650's go extremely low than he either hasn't heard any high end headphones or he is just flat out lying. The HD650 is not a bassy headphone at all. It's warm which doesn't equal bassy.


Edited by Greed - 2/1/13 at 11:24am
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythm is life View Post

Bassy HP's with neutral mids and highs might not exist by definition, but it is very possible to moderately emphasize the bass in a headphone without muddying up the midrange. The key is not to go crazy with the bass emphasis (some headphones have a 12+ dB bass boost) and keep the center frequency of the bass hump low, so that the response returns to flat at ~300 Hz. Some bass-heavy cans will keep the boost going until 500, or even 1000 Hz. 

 

A related question: Do headphones with neutral highs even exist? Every time I look at a headphone's frequency graph, there is a treble peak between 5 and 10 kHz. My white box ATH-M50s have a relatively neutral response, except for that glaring (pun intended) 8 dB spike at ~9 kHz!

I believe that the 9kHz spike you see in just about every headphone has to do with resonances or something like that. Although I don't get why it's louder in a test dummy head when that frequency is quiet in a human head.

post #15 of 36

The ear amplifies the frequencies around 3-4khz the most.  A lot of those ~10khz peaks are by design.

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