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Formula 1-fi (Read the First Post!) - Page 53

post #781 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by oqvist View Post
 

Massa is fast though faster then Alonso over a single lap.

 

What amazes me is how Alonso is immune to statistics. Here we talk about someone that got beaten by a rookie Hamilton but it somehow doesn´t count because he managed to secure two WC:s while Renault/French state was pumping in money like never seen before in F1. If you win more then 1 WC you can´t be touched or? He repeatedly got beaten by massa in qualifying and failed to win WC with 7 years in a red car :D. That is some kind of a record even Massa has been closer to do that just by a hair got beaten by Hamilton.

 

Alonso is consistent, though, and recently that's not something you can say for Massa.

 

I agree that Alonso is overrated, but that shouldn't confused with thinking he's not one of the top drivers on the grid. And in the final tally qualifying ahead by a place or two counts for approximately jack-all at most tracks; drivers who qualify out of place have a tendency to just become road blocks and get re-passed in the first few laps, unless it's Monaco.

 

The problem with the whole '[Driver] hasn't won any championships recently' argument is that there is only one winner per year, and in recent years to win you have to beat the Vettel/Red Bull juggernaut, which varied between difficult and functionally impossible. Admittedly Alonso - with a dedicated #2 - should have come closer than for instance Hamilton who didn't have one, and he did. I don't think he's performed disappointingly the recently relative to anybody except for Vettel, and Ferrari has certainly performed disappointingly relative to Red Bull. Alonso has certainly made fewer race-ending mistakes than Massa. Nobody wins every time in qualifying - even Chilton out-qualified Bianchi once :rolleyes:

post #782 of 1274
Alonso seems able to make the most of a bad situation. This partly stems from the fact that in the last few Ferrari years, both he and his car have been very mediocre qualifiers, so when he starts at his perennial 5th and consistently finishes on podium it makes him look like a brilliant racer. And, it partly stems from having a massively inconsistent number two driver (who is all over the place come race day), against whom Alonso looks very skilled.

Still, he's incredibly professional about driving his car to its limits but not beyond, with a minimum of emotional tantrum and frustration. And I think he's brilliant at patiently biding his time and then instantly capitalizing on every tiny opportunity that presents itself - probably the best in the field at this. In my opinion Alonso is in the current top two. His biggest weakness in the past has been intra-team competition from a strong teammate - so I'm hoping this will be a juicy year indeed.

I hate that F1 puts so much emphasis on stats. Senna lost two championships - not to Mansell and Prost, but to the FW14B & FW15C. Likewise 2011 - 2013 stats tell us absolutely nothing about the drivers' skill (Vettel won the 2010 championship, and then Newey won the 2011, 2012, & 2013 titles). In my opinion, they are for people who don't follow F1.
post #783 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post

Alonso seems able to make the most of a bad situation. This partly stems from the fact that in the last few Ferrari years, both he and his car have been very mediocre qualifiers, so when he starts at his perennial 5th and consistently finishes on podium it makes him look like a brilliant racer. And, it partly stems from having a massively inconsistent number two driver (who is all over the place come race day), against whom Alonso looks very skilled.

Still, he's incredibly professional about driving his car to its limits but not beyond, with a minimum of emotional tantrum and frustration. And I think he's brilliant at patiently biding his time and then instantly capitalizing on every tiny opportunity that presents itself - probably the best in the field at this. In my opinion Alonso is in the current top two. His biggest weakness in the past has been intra-team competition from a strong teammate - so I'm hoping this will be a juicy year indeed.

I hate that F1 puts so much emphasis on stats. Senna lost two championships - not to Mansell and Prost, but to the FW14B & FW15C. Likewise 2011 - 2013 stats tell us absolutely nothing about the drivers' skill (Vettel won the 2010 championship, and then Newey won the 2011, 2012, & 2013 titles). In my opinion, they are for people who don't follow F1.

 

I agree on Newey won the 2011 & 2013 titles, but I think Vettel won the 2012 title. Abu Dhabi and Brazilian GP is a solid proof of that IMO.

 

And I also agree on the fact that Alonso does well in driving his car to its limits, but not beyond. Hamilton does better in this regard.

post #784 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post

Alonso seems able to make the most of a bad situation. This partly stems from the fact that in the last few Ferrari years, both he and his car have been very mediocre qualifiers, so when he starts at his perennial 5th and consistently finishes on podium it makes him look like a brilliant racer. And, it partly stems from having a massively inconsistent number two driver (who is all over the place come race day), against whom Alonso looks very skilled.

Still, he's incredibly professional about driving his car to its limits but not beyond, with a minimum of emotional tantrum and frustration. And I think he's brilliant at patiently biding his time and then instantly capitalizing on every tiny opportunity that presents itself - probably the best in the field at this. In my opinion Alonso is in the current top two. His biggest weakness in the past has been intra-team competition from a strong teammate - so I'm hoping this will be a juicy year indeed.

I hate that F1 puts so much emphasis on stats. Senna lost two championships - not to Mansell and Prost, but to the FW14B & FW15C. Likewise 2011 - 2013 stats tell us absolutely nothing about the drivers' skill (Vettel won the 2010 championship, and then Newey won the 2011, 2012, & 2013 titles). In my opinion, they are for people who don't follow F1.

 

Yes, he's one of those types who just keep going, no matter what. Patience and perseverance. With him its mostly driver, less car.

 

He'd feel at home if he were racing in the 60s and 70s.

post #785 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post
 

 

Yes, he's one of those types who just keep going, no matter what. Patience and perseverance. With him its mostly driver, less car.

 

He'd feel at home if he were racing in the 60s and 70s.


I don't know about that. His driving has always reminded me of Prost more than any other driver.

post #786 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 


I don't know about that. His driving has always reminded me of Prost more than any other driver.

 

Possibly. I haven't watched Prost racing so I can't say much.

post #787 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post

... Senna lost two championships - not to Mansell and Prost, but to the FW14B & FW15C...

 

What about the one he lost to the MP4/5? Not trying to start a Prost vs. Senna argument...

 

Anyway, I do agree with what you're saying in principle. While every informed F1 fan (I hope) knows that the championship represents the best (sometimes luckiest) combination of car and driver throughout a season, there are people who seem to assume that a casual look at the most overall of stats will tell you who is better.

 

PS as far as 2011 and 2013 are concerned: Newey may have won the championship, but Webber still lost it. There was still one person who could have given Vettel a legitimate fight.

post #788 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exediron View Post
 

 

What about the one he lost to the MP4/5? Not trying to start a Prost vs. Senna argument...

 

Anyway, I do agree with what you're saying in principle. While every informed F1 fan (I hope) knows that the championship represents the best (sometimes luckiest) combination of car and driver throughout a season, there are people who seem to assume that a casual look at the most overall of stats will tell you who is better.

 

PS as far as 2011 and 2013 are concerned: Newey may have won the championship, but Webber still lost it. There was still one person who could have given Vettel a legitimate fight.


Hardly. Webber was hamstrung by his own team. Dr.Marko's little Frankenstein took precedent while Webber got seconds.

post #789 of 1274
The point is, whoever was in the 92-93 Williams / 2011-2013 RB was going to win the championship - similarly, whoever was in the 88 Macca. So Senna goes down in history with 3 championships whereas Vettel has already surpassed him. (No one will convince me that Vettel ranks alongside or above Senna as a driver at this stage of his career.)

As to Senna losing the 89 championship - it was helped along by Senna receiving a bizarre disqualification after his teammate ran him off the road on purpose.

And while I like Mark a lot, and on a very good day he is quick, and he had some great scraps, he was never consistent or fast enough to be one of the top drivers. Just as Riccardo Patrese didn't win second spot in the championship through pure innate skill.
post #790 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post

The point is, whoever was in the 92-93 Williams / 2011-2013 RB was going to win the championship - similarly, whoever was in the 88 Macca. So Senna goes down in history with 3 championships whereas Vettel has already surpassed him. (No one will convince me that Vettel ranks alongside or above Senna as a driver at this stage of his career.)

As to Senna losing the 89 championship - it was helped along by Senna receiving a bizarre disqualification after his teammate ran him off the road on purpose.

And while I like Mark a lot, and on a very good day he is quick, and he had some great scraps, he was never consistent or fast enough to be one of the top drivers. Just as Riccardo Patrese didn't win second spot in the championship through pure innate skill.

 

Agreed.

 

March 16th is going to be fun. Set the tone for the rest of the season. I'm sincerely hoping for some good racing this season.

post #791 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

March 16th is going to be fun. Set the tone for the rest of the season. I'm sincerely hoping for some good racing this season.

Me too.

Set the tone maybe, but hopefully not a foregone conclusion to the championship.While I'm delighted to see RB and Sebastian work at it from the other end for once, I don't want anyone waltzing away with the championship from day 1 - even if it happens to be my favourite driver.

Still, more excited about this weekend than I have been in the past three years. Feels a bit like the 2009 pre-season. But I'm hoping the new formula pays less dividend to aero - which has been ruining the sport for far too long. I love the torquey twitchiness that seems to have been displayed in pre-season. I want the drivers fighting to hold on to their cars at the edge - not the playstation point and squirt that blown diffusers have given us for the RB era.
post #792 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post


Me too.

Set the tone maybe, but hopefully not a foregone conclusion to the championship.While I'm delighted to see RB and Sebastian work at it from the other end for once, I don't want anyone waltzing away with the championship from day 1 - even if it happens to be my favourite driver.

Still, more excited about this weekend than I have been in the past three years. Feels a bit like the 2009 pre-season. But I'm hoping the new formula pays less dividend to aero - which has been ruining the sport for far too long. I love the torquey twitchiness that seems to have been displayed in pre-season. I want the drivers fighting to hold on to their cars at the edge - not the playstation point and squirt that blown diffusers have given us for the RB era.


Methinks this year the first couple of races will be a free for all. A lot of new changes and inevitably some teams won't be totally prepared. The ones that are are going to have to tread carefully though some debris in the early stages.

post #793 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudu View Post


Me too.

Set the tone maybe, but hopefully not a foregone conclusion to the championship.While I'm delighted to see RB and Sebastian work at it from the other end for once, I don't want anyone waltzing away with the championship from day 1 - even if it happens to be my favourite driver.

Still, more excited about this weekend than I have been in the past three years. Feels a bit like the 2009 pre-season. But I'm hoping the new formula pays less dividend to aero - which has been ruining the sport for far too long. I love the torquey twitchiness that seems to have been displayed in pre-season. I want the drivers fighting to hold on to their cars at the edge - not the playstation point and squirt that blown diffusers have given us for the RB era.

 

I was taking a look at the BBC's  list of greatest drivers.

 

- Only two drivers from the modern era (Post 2000) made it to the list for the best win ratio.

- Only three drivers from the modern era made it to the list for the most points per grand prix start.

- All time total number of points is dominated by modern drivers.

- Only three modern era drivers made it into the list of most poles per grand prix average.

 

So what's going on here?

-- Modern drivers have scored the maximum number of points. Probably because of scoring system changes? The article offers two reasons, "the better reliability of the cars and the increased number of races".

-- On the surface, modern drivers seem more consistent. Underneath it seems their stint of success matches their team's era of greatness.

-- Drivers from the older era rely on their personal performance more than their team's. For instance, take the case of Fangio, "Twenty-four wins in 51 races - every other race, give or take. With four different teams, over seven years. An incredible achievement. All the more so given the man did not come to Europe until he was 39".

 

If one were to extract a general rule from these stats, it seems that modern F1 is highly competitive, and the driver's success is completely bound to the team's success. In order to get anywhere near the records made by the greats, you *need to* have a superior car for a few years.

 

This brings up two questions:

-- Is modern F1 racing teams or drivers?

-- Is it wasting talent?


Edited by proton007 - 3/12/14 at 12:48am
post #794 of 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

This brings up two questions:

-- Is modern F1 racing teams or drivers?

...

 

Both, I still think. If the car was really doing all the work then you'd never see teammates finishing apart by a ratio of 2:1 at season's end. You either have to believe in a) a truly massive degree of sabotage spread throughout the field, or b) the driver makes a sizable difference. The team never has an incentive for its drivers to finish more than 1 place apart; even with a clear number one, they'd want to be 1-2 every race. But how often in 2013 did Massa finish just one place behind Alonso? For that matter, look at McLaren - a team well known for not using team orders to rein in their drivers - where Button (considered a pretty weak World Champion by many and not having a good season) still beat Perez by a rather healthy margin in the end.

 

The question of 'would Red Bull be 4-time champions if they still had Webber for #1 and someone of Coulthard's ability for #2' isn't something that can really be answered, but I think many F1 followers would answer 'no' (although it might very well just be 3 instead). And maybe if Massa had been performing at Alonso's level these last few years Ferrari would have won it more recently, too. So no, I don't think it's all the team, although you definitely do need a good team to win. But I think it's still true that you need: 1) a top driver in a top team, 2) an outstanding driver in a good team or 3) an outstanding team with a good driver. Any other combination won't yield victory.

 

---

 

All that aside, I don't think I've been this excited about the start of a new season since I started following F1 regularly around 2007, although I do have a certain sense of dread that a Mercedes white (or silver?) wash is coming. But I have confidence in the other top teams to get their development on and that it won't stay that bad for long, even if it is at Melbourne. But the very impossibility to really know what's what is going to make Saturday at the least fascinating.


Edited by Exediron - 3/12/14 at 3:57pm
post #795 of 1274
I am excited too, I am just dreading the constant team orders over radio to slow down to conserve fuel. I'm in the camp that believes racing should be 100% effort for 100% of the race. With the fuel being as tight as it sounds, they might as well tell them to go 100% and whoever goes the furthest wins.
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