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# Formula 1-fi (Read the First Post!) - Page 70

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks
Anyone else catch the Red Bull message to Ricciardo. "find out where you think you can pass him and we'll work out the energy"? Appears that someone in F1 has twigged to John Boyds EM equation:)

I thought that was strange. Can they tweak the car while running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wuwhere

I thought that was strange. Can they tweak the car while running?

If there working the way I think they are, they are looking at performance envelope largely as stored/gained/lost energy. So in order to make a successful pass you have to put a package together with the right amount of energy carried into the passing zone. They cannot tweak the car while running but they can tell the driver where to pick up electrical energy, and when the DRS will be most effective and what speed he needs to carry to have enough energy to make a pass stick.

John Boyd spent years, stole computer time from the Air Force and put the whole EM theory into an equation used to evaluate fighter aircraft. It came down purely to how the vehicle is able to store and use energy most effectively. It revolutionized fighter design and has been used ever since the F 15 was on the drawing board. It's how pilots are trained. You now hear Fighter Jocks talking about energy gained and lost rather than climb and dive. If you were smart and applied that to a Race Car you would know precisely the energy used in a given corner on a given line and braking point and how much speed you could possibly carry to the exit. It would allow you to factor in just about every variable and predict things like excessive fuel use and tire wear.

If your driver was a real keener he could tell you what he thought was the best corner or straight to get by an opponent and you could watch for 2 laps and pretty much know how much energy the competitor was able to use in that area and if you could tailor your vehicle to make a successful pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks

If there working the way I think they are, they are looking at performance envelope largely as stored/gained/lost energy. So in order to make a successful pass you have to put a package together with the right amount of energy carried into the passing zone. They cannot tweak the car while running but they can tell the driver where to pick up electrical energy, and when the DRS will be most effective and what speed he needs to carry to have enough energy to make a pass stick.

John Boyd spent years, stole computer time from the Air Force and put the whole EM theory into an equation used to evaluate fighter aircraft. It came down purely to how the vehicle is able to store and use energy most effectively. It revolutionized fighter design and has been used ever since the F 15 was on the drawing board. It's how pilots are trained. You now hear Fighter Jocks talking about energy gained and lost rather than climb and dive. If you were smart and applied that to a Race Car you would know precisely the energy used in a given corner on a given line and braking point and how much speed you could possibly carry to the exit. It would allow you to factor in just about every variable and predict things like excessive fuel use and tire wear.

If your driver was a real keener he could tell you what he thought was the best corner or straight to get by an opponent and you could watch for 2 laps and pretty much know how much energy the competitor was able to use in that area and if you could tailor your vehicle to make a successful pass.

The other team know that too so they can come up with a counter plan too. They knew that Nico's car had a problem, it was just a matter of when and where Ricciardo can pass him with only a lap or so left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wuwhere

The other team know that too so they can come up with a counter plan too. They knew that Nico's car had a problem, it was just a matter of when and where Ricciardo can pass him with only a lap or so left.

Yeah but whoever has the best software for analysis wins in this case. If Newey has been sniffing around Red Bull aviation at all they'd have hipped him to the whole vehicle as an energy battery idea in a flash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks

Yeah but whoever has the best software for analysis wins in this case. If Newey has been sniffing around Red Bull aviation at all they'd have hipped him to the whole vehicle as an energy battery idea in a flash.

I thought it was a breaking problem. Not most of the braking energy was being recovered and stored, so the secondary power source was low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wuwhere

I thought it was a breaking problem. Not most of the braking energy was being recovered and stored, so the secondary power source was low.

Where this really starts to work in an F1 teams favour is because there is more than one power source now, as well as drag reduction. The energy bleed changes with the vehicle dynamics. Rosbergs ill luck was just a bonus here. The Merc was still blisteringly fast even with the handicap but getting weaker by the lap. Without the electric power and torque to pull him off the turns he became vulnerable (IE he has less energy available out of the corner) . If you have that analyzed properly you see exactly wherabouts your car has a significant energy advantage and make your move there where there is no possibility for him to defend against a pass. If you do it wrong at that stage of the game you've lost the energy advantage and need several laps to regain it, by that time the race is over and you're in second place.

There is a lot more s/w in there now. And whenever there is more s/w there are faster processors, memory, PCB traces, etc... Well these things are sensitive to temperature and vibrations. These boards and components must be qualified for that kind of environment.

I wonder if these electronics are even redundant.

Edited by wuwhere - 6/10/14 at 9:38pm

Redundant electronics, redundant weight. Probably not. The number of tiny little ways a modern F1 car can break down must be in the hundreds, and with the cascade effect it's a wonder they ever last an entire race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exediron

Redundant electronics, redundant weight. Probably not. The number of tiny little ways a modern F1 car can break down must be in the hundreds, and with the cascade effect it's a wonder they ever last an entire race

Going to get even more complex

Perez, Montoya or Maldonado. Something with that south american temperament I recon lol. I recon they all have Senna as idol so no wonder they try to be aggressive.  Imagine Maldonado in the 80´s. How many Grand Prix:s could he survive.

As for Ericsson well new to F1 in the worst car by far in the field. I don´t think he is the worst driver in F1 though by far even though he can´t match the more experienced Kobayashi yet.

Pitting the legends with modern F1 drivers maybe more fair to do it in an older F1 car because the micro is absolutely insane these days. Senna would crash in T1 messing with the torque settings, fuel mappings, ERS and what not :)

There is a youtube video of Coulthard trying a lap at Monaco it´s just insane what they do while racing full on. This is also the reason why Kubica can´t get back into F1 his thumb is to damage to deal with the micro.

There is just a bigger selection these days and there is perhaps a reason why old F1 drivers is exchanged for young relatively inexperienced onces. Not just due to get a bit better reaction times.

I wonder if Senna could keep up even with say Max Chilton.

With modern training I recon he could. You don´t really get to far with just talent you need tons of practise and practise good to make anything out of it. There is a lot of superb raw talents in sports that never succeed maybe because it´s to easy for them.

It would be really cool because Montezelmo is right.

Endurance racing is where it´s at did you all see the epic 24h Le Mans race. It´s getting kind of booring with Audi bringing it home but they are just doing about everything right :)

Porsche is back now and Ferrari should really be in the P1 category as well. Nissan is in the line up for next year and I hope Toyota is back stronger then ever.

I suppose if Ferrari was leading the championship and having the best engine he would not talk like that though a bit sour grapes I imagine :p

"People watch racing to be entertained," di Montezemolo said. "No one wants to watch a driver save gas or tires. They want to see them push from here to there. It's sport, yes, but also a show."

Truer words were never spoken.

Greener tech ? Why not, especially if it happens to go donward to street-legal cars like it almost already seems to be the case with the new E-Turbo tech.

Now, I just don't get the point of blocking the engine developpement and limiting the amount of available tires...

Sounds like he is frustrated with not being able to utilise his resources and facilities. Limiting development of engines is an oxymoron for Formula 1 as it's supposed to be the pinnacle of automotive engineering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gikigill

Sounds like he is frustrated with not being able to utilise his resources and facilities. Limiting development of engines is an oxymoron for Formula 1 as it's supposed to be the pinnacle of automotive engineering.

Well Ferrari has not been terribly able to adapt to the new rules. I don't blame them for being frustrated at the many years of being non competitive.Raikkonnen's last championship for them was very much a skin of the teeth thing. They really have not been able to cope since Schumacher and that is a long time ago when he was able to spend endless hours on the test track working out every single issue with the car.

I rather miss the old "no holds barred" F1 where a team would show up and be dominant at the begining of the season, and by the mid season a few more teams would have figured out the secret mojo and caught up for a real knife fight of a championship ending.

These days if you're not spot on in race 1 you are pretty much effed for the entire season.

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