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King Sound Emperor: New Electrostatic Headphones! - Page 40

post #586 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post
 

You are indeed correct - this was a few years back and since then my own personal tastes have moved more towards coherence, speed and accuracy, I even enjoy my Beyer T70P immensely now despite it being 'bass light' hence my move back into stats auditioning starting with the KS. I suspect if presented with the 3030 system again today I would not be so quick to let go of it. Such is the lives we live eh?

 

Mind you if I do go back to Stax it would be a few notches higher than the 3030.


Edited by marcusd - 12/4/13 at 7:27am
post #587 of 666

I don't think anybody would call the KingSound combo a good budget choice when it sounds - well not that great and is twice the price of the excellent SRS-2170.  Even the ESP950 system is 600$ now and the Koss set is superior to even the best Lambdas. 

 

I'd be interested in some more pics of the headphones, earcups with the pads removed etc.  Even better if you'd open them up...  :o

post #588 of 666

IMHO anything from Stax, even vintage stuff, will be superior to the Kingsound, especially when you factor in longevity and future servicing :wink_face:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcusd View Post
 

You are indeed correct - this was a few years back and since then my own personal tastes have moved more towards coherence, speed and accuracy, I even enjoy my Beyer T70P immensely now despite it being 'bass light' hence my move back into stats auditioning starting with the KS. I suspect if presented with the 3030 system again today I would not be so quick to let go of it. Such is the lives we live eh?

 

Mind you if I do go back to Stax it would be a few notches higher than the 3030.

post #589 of 666

If the new Kingsound sounds anything like the SRX-MK3 than I may be interested as long as comfort is there, I like the vintage Stax, that nice midrange and more midrange.

 

Maybe Kingsound should stop making amps and focus on the headphone instead, given the really short timeframe of which they are releasing a successor? to the first headphone it sounds like they are taking feedback input to some degree to improving design and rectifying flaws on the original.

post #590 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post
 


Lambdas roll off in the low bass. Stat bass is great but it is seldom plentiful.

post #591 of 666

Don't think this is borne out by actual measurements

 

Below is a "typical" Lambda FQR measurement

 

4637618

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode View Post
 


Lambdas roll off in the low bass. Stat bass is great but it is seldom plentiful.

post #592 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post
 

 

I should've qualified that by saying that they sound like they roll off in the low bass, even though that's not exactly borne out by measurements. Part of it has to do with fit, another part has to do with the texture of the bass being a little on the dry side when compared to reality, yet another part may be the amping. Though I do recall hearing an improved lower end response from the 507 as compared to my 404LE (measurements).

 

The 009 bass sounds a little more natural, indeed it's one of my favorites among all headphones, but I still have to bump up the response by 3db below 100hz to get it up to par.

post #593 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post
 

I don't think anybody would call the KingSound combo a good budget choice when it sounds - well not that great and is twice the price of the excellent SRS-2170.  Even the ESP950 system is 600$ now and the Koss set is superior to even the best Lambdas. 

 

I'd be interested in some more pics of the headphones, earcups with the pads removed etc.  Even better if you'd open them up...  :o

sadly I cant open them up but yes will post pics side by side with the old one this weekend :) 

post #594 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by anetode View Post
 

 

I should've qualified that by saying that they sound like they roll off in the low bass, even though that's not exactly borne out by measurements. Part of it has to do with fit, another part has to do with the texture of the bass being a little on the dry side when compared to reality, yet another part may be the amping. Though I do recall hearing an improved lower end response from the 507 as compared to my 404LE (measurements).

 

The 009 bass sounds a little more natural, indeed it's one of my favorites among all headphones, but I still have to bump up the response by 3db below 100hz to get it up to par.

The SR009's bass is ruler flat down to 10Hz (and I can hear it down flat to 20Hz). But that's on a KGSSHV. On a LL or a Stax amp, I can understand your comments.

post #595 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

The SR009's bass is ruler flat down to 10Hz (and I can hear it down flat to 20Hz). But that's on a KGSSHV. On a LL or a Stax amp, I can understand your comments.

 

The SR009's bass is not ruler flat down to 10Hz (or 20 Hz) according to IF measurements (or my ears). The 10 Hz to 50 Hz range seems attenuated by ~2.5 dB from 60 Hz, and the 60 Hz to 600 Hz range seems attenuated by another ~2.5 dB from 1kHz:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf

 

My (sealed coupler) measurements yielded about the same results, and so did Arnaud's:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/498292/my-diy-electrostatic-headphones/435#post_8607847

 

They do seem to have very low distortion in the bass area. And when getting a proper seal, there is definitively very high quality bass there.

 

I think Tyll's, Arnaud's and my measurements were made out of Stax amps. You think the KGSSHV adds some low end compensation and flattens out the bass of the 009s? That's not my understanding. Or do you think that the losses described by the measurements and impressions are a result of poor performance by the Stax and LL amps?


Edited by ultrabike - 12/5/13 at 4:42pm
post #596 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrabike View Post
 

 

The SR009's bass is not ruler flat down to 10Hz (or 20 Hz) according to IF measurements (or my ears). The 10 Hz to 50 Hz range seems attenuated by ~2.5 dB from 60 Hz, and the 60 Hz to 600 Hz range seems attenuated by another ~2.5 dB from 1kHz:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf

 

My (sealed coupler) measurements yielded about the same results, and so did Arnaud's:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/498292/my-diy-electrostatic-headphones/435#post_8607847

 

They do seem to have very low distortion in the bass area. And when getting a proper seal, there is definitively very high quality bass there.

 

I think Tyll's, Arnaud's and my measurements were made out of Stax amps. You think the KGSSHV adds some low end compensation and flattens out the bass of the 009s? That's not my understanding. Or do you think that the losses described by the measurements and impressions are a result of poor performance by the Stax and LL amps?

 

Compared to most headphones, the SR009s are pretty ruler flat. correct, not absolutely flat...but they do not roll off in the bass like so many headphones. I'd love to see a study with different headphone amps and how they affect the frequency response (dynamic and/or stat). Could be fun to see. But a 2.5dB from 60Hz down is still very, very good. 

post #597 of 666

The Lambdas are measured flat to 10Hz on those Stax documents but that's with them pressing the pads against a sealed measurement system...that way they get a perfect seal.  In actual use, the older Lambdas don't seal all that well so there is definitely bass roll off and a little midbass bump at the resonant frequency.  The drivers might be capable of putting out perfectly flat bass but you need to use better sealing pads.  Seems like a fun DIY experiment if anybody has some spare leather. :D

post #598 of 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by n3rdling View Post
 

The Lambdas are measured flat to 10Hz on those Stax documents but that's with them pressing the pads against a sealed measurement system...that way they get a perfect seal.  In actual use, the older Lambdas don't seal all that well so there is definitely bass roll off and a little midbass bump at the resonant frequency.  The drivers might be capable of putting out perfectly flat bass but you need to use better sealing pads.  Seems like a fun DIY experiment if anybody has some spare leather. :D


That makes sense and would be awesome!

 

I know Arnaud made some models that might be useful for optimization: http://www.head-fi.org/t/498292/my-diy-electrostatic-headphones/585#post_8738868

 

Not sure if surface area would be a consideration though. For certain dynamics I think the closer the driver is to the ear (less volume to drive) the better the bass gets, and the increase pressure in the Stax measurements might reduce the driving volume by squeezing the pads...

 

The 009s are pretty awesome as they are. But I would proly do something similar to what Anetode did to get the best of them for my individual preferences.


Edited by ultrabike - 12/5/13 at 5:47pm
post #599 of 666
I actually also have been curious to see if the amp can measurably influence the measured frequency response. I had a LLmk2 in my possession for a short while but was dumb enough to not make any measurement. I could however compare the 727A to the BHSE if I ever receive it wink.gif. That is assuming I can have sufficiently repeatability (a big IF smily_headphones1.gif ).

Having said that, from the few simulations I ran as linked above (mind you, they're based on guessed material properties so only worth so much), the sealing is indeed the main driver for all this.

By physics, a sealed baffle plate headphone in a sealed earcavity (e.g. Leather/pleather pad), should not roll off the bass. If so, there's got to be leakage somewhere.

Now, the resonance you see (typically a blip at 30-70Hz depending on the phone) is combination of diaphragm / air cavity / earpad cushion effective mass & stiffness.

Coming back to the lambdas, they thus have the potential to measure flat if the seal is right, just like the omegas and other 009.

Also, as for Tyll's stat measurements, I thought he did them all in one or two scoops with the help of the "mafia"? E.g got a bhse lent to him and phones from here and there. I might be wrong though.

Arnaud
post #600 of 666

Yep his measurements are with the BHSE.  I don't think you'll have trouble with repeatability...just have both amps plugged in and warmed up and plug/unplug the headphones as needed.  No need to take them off the rig.

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