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DSD, to support or not - Page 7

post #91 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

 

do you think a redbook cd upconverted to 24/192 would sound better?

Yes and no. Depends what software and hardware combination(s) is being used. There are software players that can correct for most if not all defficiences in say a lowly redbook. But it takes one hell of a computer and understanding/experience on the part of the user. But better is lower resolution done right than something potentially better but not executed well enough. This is where $ inevitably will kick in - a really well done redbook will outperform a poorly made "higher rez", whatever that might be, PCM or DSD. 

 

This is why I decided not to go with Foobar2000 ABX plugin comparator - it can only ABX in PCM, meaning you can not compare native DSD vs PCM under ABX .

Even "sighted" AB will at least give away there was change from PCM to DSD - there is slight switching noise, again dependant on software adjustment and actual hardware. And that actual hardwares can sound sufficiently different one from another to mask the (dis)advantages of either PCM or DSD - often preffering one and shunning the other. And/or vice versa.

 

But given the same kind of attention to detail ( with inevitable price increase ), upconverted 24/192 should have the edge. IF the soft is clever enough to "recostruct" what should have been there in the redbook but can not be due to the very redboook itself.

 

Not a straight answer, but one I believe is close to the truth. 

post #92 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

Yes and no. Depends what software and hardware combination(s) is being used. There are software players that can correct for most if not all defficiences in say a lowly redbook. But it takes one hell of a computer and understanding/experience on the part of the user. But better is lower resolution done right than something potentially better but not executed well enough. This is where $ inevitably will kick in - a really well done redbook will outperform a poorly made "higher rez", whatever that might be, PCM or DSD. 

 

This is why I decided not to go with Foobar2000 ABX plugin comparator - it can only ABX in PCM, meaning you can not compare native DSD vs PCM under ABX .

Even "sighted" AB will at least give away there was change from PCM to DSD - there is slight switching noise, again dependant on software adjustment and actual hardware. And that actual hardwares can sound sufficiently different one from another to mask the (dis)advantages of either PCM or DSD - often preffering one and shunning the other. And/or vice versa.

 

But given the same kind of attention to detail ( with inevitable price increase ), upconverted 24/192 should have the edge. IF the soft is clever enough to "recostruct" what should have been there in the redbook but can not be due to the very redboook itself.

 

Not a straight answer, but one I believe is close to the truth. 

 

 

upconverting redbook would be like converting an mp3 to flac, nothing is lost and nothing is gained

 

And as far as ABXing different resolutions in foobar, you can EASILY tell because there is a slight pause while the system switches between them. It doesn't necessarily sound better

post #93 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

 

 

upconverting redbook would be like converting an mp3 to flac, nothing is lost and nothing is gained

 

And as far as ABXing different resolutions in foobar, you can EASILY tell because there is a slight pause while the system switches between them. It doesn't necessarily sound better

Not necessary true. Some software may well be clever enough to add what was not recorded originally ( anything above 22050 Hz in redbook ) - and another may not. The first "with improvement" should have an edge over the one "without improvement". 

 

What you say holds true for PCM only - because ABX in Foobar can not play DSD natively and will covert it to highest resolution PCM your hardware will support if you configured foobar correctly. 

post #94 of 97

anything added is by definition coloration

post #95 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

anything added is by definition coloration

Meant was adding WHAT BY DEFINITION IS BEING LEFT OUT OF REDBOOK - that is to say anythhing above 22050 Hz . If the soft is clever enough, it can recalculate the omissions - but it is then up to the exactness of the algorythm which even if executed perfectly, does not necessary mean it recreates precisely what has not been recorded due to the restrictions of redbook.

 

Similarly have been re-recorded historical recordings - some even around 100 years old -  using the measurements of devices with which they were originally recorded  and applying the appropriate measures that added (most of) what could not have been recorded at the time due to technical restrictions, using most up to date software. Mechanical recording had a very limited frequency and dynamic range  - by applying the correct transfer function, it is possible today to get quite close to the real sound .

 

It was NOT meant adding anything else but omissions due to technicalities - that would indeed be coloration and it is best avoided at all costs.

post #96 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post
 

Meant was adding WHAT BY DEFINITION IS BEING LEFT OUT OF REDBOOK - that is to say anythhing above 22050 Hz . If the soft is clever enough, it can recalculate the omissions - but it is then up to the exactness of the algorythm which even if executed perfectly, does not necessary mean it recreates precisely what has not been recorded due to the restrictions of redbook.

 

You can't put something back that wasn't there in the first place. Once the audio is trimmed for cd, that cd will never ever regain the lost frequencies.

 

And your example of historical reproduction, the software is once again adding something that was not there. I could make my stereo sound like an opera house but it doesn't mean my music was recorded in an opera house

post #97 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

 

You can't put something back that wasn't there in the first place. Once the audio is trimmed for cd, that cd will never ever regain the lost frequencies.

 

And your example of historical reproduction, the software is once again adding something that was not there. I could make my stereo sound like an opera house but it doesn't mean my music was recorded in an opera house

You CAN - if it is precisely known what was omitted - and that info can be obtained by measurements of the device that made the original recording. It goes from "Mary had a little lamb" to the last recording done in less than ( insert your choice either in analog, PCM or DSD ) . But you also have to know not only the characteristic(s) of the recorder(s), but also microphones used at the original session(s).

 

It is the last ditch effort and should be used with the extreme caution and judging by ear what is still "acceptable" - and preferably one should use equipment that does not possess such limitations. This has been around only  for approx last 10 years or so, maybe a bit longer - and that is in recording terms very recently.

 

Various software players acommodate varying degrees of possibility to cater to these differences http://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/best-audiophile-music-software - here the lenghty review describing one of the most dedicated journeys in computer audio http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/xxhighend/3.html - I admit of only glancing at it, as computer system requirements are a "bit" above what I consider reasonable and have on my radar as a reasonably forseeable future addition.  And I  would not touch anything not supporting DSD with a barge pole - but the purpose of this post is to underline the difference of adding what has been omitted due to limitations of equipment used for the original recording - NOT additions it would take to make a recording originally made in a closet sound like a cathedral - or opera house, if you prefer. That is beyond the scope of "additions" I had in mind.


Edited by analogsurviver - Yesterday at 6:10 am
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