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post #76 of 110

I've been kinda out of the audiophilia game for a while, I took a break. I'm a high school student who had the realization that I was spending mad money on equipment with barely any music to enjoy! So I've gotten into buying plenty of vinyl and CDs (still not much of a collection relative to lifelong head-fiers, I've only been alive under two decades!).

 

Anyway, I haven't gotten into SACDs, my music preferences generally aren't on that, same for hi-rez FLAC. I'm working with either vinyl or Redbook CDs. I love the sound of vinyl, gives a great sense of space, even with my $30 Ortofon Omega cart! Bests my CDs and PS Audio DLIII DAC in soundstage by a noticeable amount, I can't even imagine what a *good* vinyl rig can do! I'll continue to buy vinyl over CD and hopefully rip it to digital, to have the best of both worlds.

 

I understand there's probably not much available in DSD, in fact I've only heard of it last night when looking for a decent ADC to archive my vinyl with, and it mentioned both PCM and DSD. I googled it, and read a review and it sounded like the holy grail! Even if there's not a lot of music released on it right now, I'm excited for the promise double DSD may bring for truly archiving my vinyl. Buying vinyl to record to digital would be preferable to buying the CD to me, vinyl seems to have a better mastering job put into it for the audiophile market if anything, even if the recording and mastering was all digital.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankty View Post
 

Also, I wish we could just completely kill off the Vinyl market.  There is another no-brainer decision:  24/192 digital or 180gm vinyl.  Seriously!  The amount of prep time to play one side of a disk (that decays as soon as it's exposed to the environment, not to mention playing it) vs tapping a few keys?  Yeah, Yeah, I know it's "better" - but for how long?  Vinyl - just kill it and force the companies to supply us with decent digital music or don't do it at all.

I agree, it's about the sound quality for me. I'm always worried about a scratch or worn needle wearing down my records (and degrading my few reel to reel tapes too) and all that kind of stuff, that's why I want to back up to high quality digital that can fully capture the vinyl's quality. That's not 100% possible, but 128x DSD looks like 98% to me. And I'd much rather "tap a few keys" and set up a playlist of several albums playing on end while I do other stuff, none of this flip every 1/2 (or 1/4 with 2LP albums, like the majority of mine are, being an electronic enthusiast) album business, it's annoying. I considered recording to reel tape as well, it's just about the continuous playback. But I already want a digital copy, so might as well use it for playback as well.

post #77 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post
 

I've been kinda out of the audiophilia game for a while, I took a break. I'm a high school student who had the realization that I was spending mad money on equipment with barely any music to enjoy! So I've gotten into buying plenty of vinyl and CDs (still not much of a collection relative to lifelong head-fiers, I've only been alive under two decades!).

 

Anyway, I haven't gotten into SACDs, my music preferences generally aren't on that, same for hi-rez FLAC. I'm working with either vinyl or Redbook CDs. I love the sound of vinyl, gives a great sense of space, even with my $30 Ortofon Omega cart! Bests my CDs and PS Audio DLIII DAC in soundstage by a noticeable amount, I can't even imagine what a *good* vinyl rig can do! I'll continue to buy vinyl over CD and hopefully rip it to digital, to have the best of both worlds.

 

I understand there's probably not much available in DSD, in fact I've only heard of it last night when looking for a decent ADC to archive my vinyl with, and it mentioned both PCM and DSD. I googled it, and read a review and it sounded like the holy grail! Even if there's not a lot of music released on it right now, I'm excited for the promise double DSD may bring for truly archiving my vinyl. Buying vinyl to record to digital would be preferable to buying the CD to me, vinyl seems to have a better mastering job put into it for the audiophile market if anything, even if the recording and mastering was all digital.

 

I agree, it's about the sound quality for me. I'm always worried about a scratch or worn needle wearing down my records (and degrading my few reel to reel tapes too) and all that kind of stuff, that's why I want to back up to high quality digital that can fully capture the vinyl's quality. That's not 100% possible, but 128x DSD looks like 98% to me. And I'd much rather "tap a few keys" and set up a playlist of several albums playing on end while I do other stuff, none of this flip every 1/2 (or 1/4 with 2LP albums, like the majority of mine are, being an electronic enthusiast) album business, it's annoying. I considered recording to reel tape as well, it's just about the continuous playback. But I already want a digital copy, so might as well use it for playback as well.

 

 

Wow.  I thought that comment would maybe get me banished ...  ;-)

 

It doesn't need to be DSD (but I'll grab all I can).  PCM FLAC is just fine thank you, and it doesn't even need to be 192Khz.  

Have a listen to "LORDE - Pure Heroin" (PCM-FLAC 24/48khz) - just amazing sound.  No reason this couldn't have been 24/192 except for the studios being scared to death to release any new material at that quality.  It really pissed me off that they remastered Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" and then only re-released it in RedBook format.

 

Also, may your iPods+iTunes die in hell along with the Vinyl.

 

Surf out to: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music?ref=live

and:

http://www.ponomusic.com/#home

 

And also these folks:  http://geek.lhlabs.com/force/geekoutnano.html

 

No need to listen to crap whilst mobile.  Friends don't let friends do MP3.

 

My $0.02

post #78 of 110

I am slowly migrating to DSD. Indeed quality is noticeably better even with to PCM conversion. Sound is much more detailed. Finally I can hear difference between different phone amplifiers. Great new that mobile players now support DSD so I do not need to convert them to PCM. But space. I can record twice less music in DSD on same microSD. So I am hoping in price drop for 128Gb microSD.

If you think 96Khz FLAC is fine, then I recommend to compare samples at

http://edu.bluecoastrecords.com/

if you do not hear difference, then you need to upgrade your gear.

post #79 of 110


All of this discussion about DSD's, MP3's, WAV's, PCM,s etc etc.  reminds me of the Brian Regan joke about being in an appliance store: "Well you got this refrigerator here, this keeps all your food cold for $600. You've got this refrigerator, this keeps all your food cold for $800. Check this out, $1400, keeps all your food cold.

post #80 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BECHA View Post
 

I am slowly migrating to DSD. Indeed quality is noticeably better even with to PCM conversion. Sound is much more detailed. Finally I can hear difference between different phone amplifiers. Great new that mobile players now support DSD so I do not need to convert them to PCM. But space. I can record twice less music in DSD on same microSD. So I am hoping in price drop for 128Gb microSD.

If you think 96Khz FLAC is fine, then I recommend to compare samples at

http://edu.bluecoastrecords.com/

if you do not hear difference, then you need to upgrade your gear.

 

From that website about WAV:

 

Quote:

While this is arguable, many audiophiles hear the improved sound with uncompressed files

 

 

About FLAC:

 

Quote:
 compromise of quality for ease of use.

 

 

LMFAOOOO. With the decoding power of computers nowadays, there's no difference between bit identical FLAC and WAVs.

post #81 of 110

I am just a music listener and far away of any technologies. When I listen to music I can state only how I like it or not. So recently I discovered DSD format for myself. First I will admit I listen to on fly DSD converted to PCM. But I can clearly admit that sound quality is noticeably better. I can listen to much more details than I can hear using 24/192 recording. I listen DSD mostly on Android phone, however sometimes I use PC with an external DAC, still PCM. And in both cases I would chose DSD over PCM. DSD recording has advantage not for every type of music, it is very beneficial for classical or jazz, but for pop or rock I would prefer PCM. I still have no clue why DSD to PCM converted sounds better than just PCM. First I was under impression that it is psychological aspect, or just because SACD have better mastered material. However I found that vinyl rips in DSD sound better. Most of modern ADC can produce DSD or PCM, so I did several blind tests. I used ears of friends of mine. And each time people admitted that recording in DSD makes impression of more natural sound. So now my explanation of a phenomenon of DSD simply because ADC works better to generate DSD.

 

So my hope only that 128Gb microSD card will drop in price and I can carry more hi res music with me.

post #82 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boerd View Post
 

PCM is fine for me. I'd rather spend time looking for good recordings than bother with DSD.

Merchants might be looking forward to selling you again your preferred music for a new (:)) price but it won't fly with me.

DSD is synonym with investing in cables. The main constraint for sound quality reproduction is the speaker (and room) or the headphone.

Of course I can see people that hear the difference between PCM and DSD but IMHO that's bull. They are the

same people who can hear the difference between two cables or two good DACs. Bull.

24 bit /96 khz PCM is plenty for me. I will not pay for this DSD nonsense.

 

I agree that PCM is just fine. I also agree that Speakers and Room acoustics are the most significant factors in Audio reproduction.  But to say that differences between cables are ******** or that DSD is indistinguishable from PCM? Sorry, but differences between cables do exist and at times they are so clear even a relatively untrained ear can perceive the differences. As for DSD versus PCM, I can clearly distinguish them, and in general the outcome favours PCM, IMO. DSD lacks extension at the top at 2.8 MHz, and even at 5.6 MHz  it sounds somewhat laid back, lacking in drive and dynamics. If you really cannot hear these differences, then I am sorry to say that you should have your ears examined. They really do exist! :L3000:

post #83 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocksteady65 View Post
DSD lacks extension at the top at 2.8 MHz, and even at 5.6 MHz  it sounds somewhat laid back, lacking in drive and dynamics. If you really cannot hear these differences, then I am sorry to say that you should have your ears examined. They really do exist! :L3000:

I'm being serious when I ask you if you made a typo and meant to say that PCM was the one lacking, since everything I remember reading about it sums up to DSD having better top end at those specific ranges that introduces much more nuance and detail to the sound, or something like that.

post #84 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin gilmore View Post
 

I'm sure i'm in the extreme minority on this, as i have over 1600 SACD's

and i'm acquiring more and more every week.

 

DSD is very important to me. A statement dac that can do dsd from

any number of hdmi based sacd players is something i am very

interested in.

Extreme minority +1, Kevin.

 

I know the technical arguments regarding PCM and DSD may be interesting, but what really matters to me is what I hear.  I have downloaded many PCM "hi-resolution" recordings which are nice, but I have frankly not been blown away, particularly for the price.  

 

But when I experienced well recorded DSD, that all changed.  Listening to DSD, I have experienced the greatest improvement in listening pleasure in my long attempt at finding the best sound quality.    It has also inspired me to rekindle my interest in acquiring more SACD content.

post #85 of 110

AnalogSurvivor, thank you for a clear and compelling explanation of the technical reasons that DSD sounds better to me.  I have spent many, many hours in clubs listening to live music.  What I am looking for in music playback is the closest reproduction of that experience possible.  DSD gives that to me.

post #86 of 110

The major issue is that you can't output DSD from a SACD player AFAIK, so the only ways to obtain DSD files is either by buying digital files online(and you won't physically own them, barely having the right to play them) or PS3 illegal rips.

 

What's really ironic is companies raving about DSD512 support when there's hardly any content in that format? And the icing on the cake is that those DSD512 DAC's are using $2 voltage-output DAC chips, hah. Can hardly wait for DSD1024 :tongue_smile: 


Edited by leeperry - 8/16/14 at 2:53pm
post #87 of 110

Sorry to revive this, but I kind of have something to add.

 

My relationship with this hobby is.... I love music and want it to sound good, but there are SOOOO many attributes to "audiophilism" that absolutely infuriate me (nothing to be mentioned lest a flame begins)

 

I fiddle with placebo laden things (again not mentioning) but I invested in a used sony blu ray player that had SACD support. I got some SACDs and played them through my speaker system, and wow. The imaging is outstanding and the depth is beautiful, In The Land Of Grey And Pink has never sounded so good. Unfortunately the player can't seem to keep up with the disc (a damn shame) so I'm pretty much stuck without it.

 

What has held SACDs back would be the proprietary nature and the price of the discs and equipment. As for DSD, it once again comes down to equipment and source material. There is potential in this but more than anything, if "they" f up the master then all effort is made moot (and moot is terrible)

post #88 of 110

Could someone explain to me the difference between a DSD recording and a non-DSD recording converted to DSD by JRiver, et al?  I don't understand the point that there is no source material when I can convert all my files to DSD if I want to.

post #89 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogart24 View Post
 

Could someone explain to me the difference between a DSD recording and a non-DSD recording converted to DSD by JRiver, et al?  I don't understand the point that there is no source material when I can convert all my files to DSD if I want to.

 

do you think a redbook cd upconverted to 24/192 would sound better?

post #90 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKENEDPLAGUE View Post
 

Sorry to revive this, but I kind of have something to add.

 

My relationship with this hobby is.... I love music and want it to sound good, but there are SOOOO many attributes to "audiophilism" that absolutely infuriate me (nothing to be mentioned lest a flame begins)

 

I fiddle with placebo laden things (again not mentioning) but I invested in a used sony blu ray player that had SACD support. I got some SACDs and played them through my speaker system, and wow. The imaging is outstanding and the depth is beautiful, In The Land Of Grey And Pink has never sounded so good. Unfortunately the player can't seem to keep up with the disc (a damn shame) so I'm pretty much stuck without it.

 

What has held SACDs back would be the proprietary nature and the price of the discs and equipment. As for DSD, it once again comes down to equipment and source material. There is potential in this but more than anything, if "they" f up the master then all effort is made moot (and moot is terrible)


There's no potential beyond the 24 bit formats that are already here but of course the same mastering issues exist. 24/192 isn't a better format for many because even on the playback side, it has to be very right for it to sound better than a lower format on better kit. I'm a big fan of HiDef but don't think there's a fundamental improvement on many setups. I suspect why there's so much debate. A high % won't have enough at the playback end to think it worth the effort.

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