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post #46 of 86

You keep reading and I'll continue to do my own compares with stuff that I've prepared for myself.bigsmile_face.gif


Edited by goodvibes - 2/2/13 at 12:59pm
post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

You keep reading and I'll continue to do my own compares with stuff that I've prepared for myself.bigsmile_face.gif

 

Fair enough! beerchug.gif

post #48 of 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

You are right on most counts. But did fail to recognize one tring - never before it was actually possible to distribute a master that reaches end consumer in exactly the same quality as original # 0001 direct to whatever recording or finalized mix.

 

Isn't this what the people who PAY for the music have always deserved, as opposed to the hit and miss delivery you describe below? Now that technology allows this, why should we stand still or look backwards?

 

Just listen to various releases of the same music on the same label issued say in the US, UK, Germany and Japan - they will usually NOT sound the same, because of multitude of technical reasons. The "local boys issue" will likely sound the best - if it originated in US, that would most likely favour US released version - and so forth. Granted, differences are in digital times lesser than in analog, where these differences really were pronounced. But possibility of each and every end consumer getting exactly the maximum of recording or the exact copy of the master is something entirely different. I agree people really caring about sound are tiny tiny tiny minority and MP3 crowds are not interested even in CD quality, let alone DSD or hi rez PCM. But once a digital copy of real master is out, owner of the work has no more any real control over it. And here not only piracy is meant.

 

For the DSD to be succesful in downloads, internet speeds etc on average, not only in the most technologically advanced countries, should get better.  44 min of audio in DSD64 or at 2.8MHz is 2 GB - the lenght of an average vinyl album. Multiply that by the lenght of the programme, multiply by two if going to DSD128 or at 5.6MHz - a far cry from say 100 MB for MP3.

 

I will keep on trying to do things best I possibly can - and deal with issues discussed at later date. But can not pretend they are not there - few professions are as vulnerable to abuse in this way as is "music".

 

Then the music industry has the option, as it has had for multiple decades, to propose more ingenious strategies than the lawsuits, watermarks and copy protection it has pursued thus far. It is a rich and powerful business with immensely talented and creative people at all levels (excepting maybe top management). Use these resources to develop solutions that respect consumers' intelligence and and engender our loyalty. It has always seemed to me that the "the business" viewed me as the enemy and a cash cow who should be happy to pony up for mediocre product. (Two animal metaphors in one sentence, ha!) And now... in this one small arena, at least, we can be "mad as hell and not have to take it anymore."  I kind of like that.

 popcorn.gif

post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreyfranz View Post

 

Then the music industry has the option, as it has had for multiple decades, to propose more ingenious strategies than the lawsuits, watermarks and copy protection it has pursued thus far. It is a rich and powerful business with immensely talented and creative people at all levels (excepting maybe top management). Use these resources to develop solutions that respect consumers' intelligence and and engender our loyalty. It has always seemed to me that the "the business" viewed me as the enemy and a cash cow who should be happy to pony up for mediocre product. (Two animal metaphors in one sentence, ha!) And now... in this one small arena, at least, we can be "mad as hell and not have to take it anymore."  I kind of like that.

 popcorn.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreyfranz View Post

 

Then the music industry has the option, as it has had for multiple decades, to propose more ingenious strategies than the lawsuits, watermarks and copy protection it has pursued thus far. It is a rich and powerful business with immensely talented and creative people at all levels (excepting maybe top management). Use these resources to develop solutions that respect consumers' intelligence and and engender our loyalty. It has always seemed to me that the "the business" viewed me as the enemy and a cash cow who should be happy to pony up for mediocre product. (Two animal metaphors in one sentence, ha!) And now... in this one small arena, at least, we can be "mad as hell and not have to take it anymore."  I kind of like that.

 

 

I agree that every customer who pays for a recording should get the best possible quality. And SHOULD observe copyright etc. Sony insisted on having possibility of making direct digital copy of CD - the biggest opponent was CBS, who wanted to impose a system that would make copy without D/A and back to A/D conversion ( with loss of quality ) next to impossible, with multiple technical solutions through its CBS Technology Center. Sony bought the whole CBS, disbanding CBS Technology Center ASAP. Then CD Recorders appeared ... digital clones everywhere, the rest is history. And it certainly is not good for the artists.

 

Point is simple: if the best possible DIGITAL master is sold to any third party, original artist or owner of the recording looses control over it. There will always be individuals who will breach rules - it unfortunately is the nature of mankind.

 

To elaborate: when I started in CD retail (about 1993), it was a lucrative bussines. Since I am a classical guy, let me explain. A regular CD from majors ( Deutsche Grammophon, Philips, Decca ( now Universal Classics ), EMI, Warner, Virgin, etc used to cost approx 3000 SIT ( now defunct Slovenian Tolar, currency used after gaining independence till adoption of Euro ). Then came Naxos, which has a mighty good catalog - at approx 1000 SIT. The trend continued - with Brilliant etc, at approx 500 SIT. It was REALLY hard for me to decide what to order for shop - because 3000 SIT CDs meant financial gain, 1000 SIT brink of survival and 500 SIT ( 2 EUR ) commercial suicide. I knew that ordering only 500 SIT, really good music on those CDs, would soon have consequences from the superiours - basically lots of work for no gain. With the possible cancellation of the classical department alltogether. Creating a loose/loose/loose situation for menagement of the shop, myself and customers in the process. 

 

At the point where there is no sound commercial interest to anyone - things stop. Meaning if there is not enough money generated, there will be no recording of new music by new artists. This is the Catch 22 point - and that is VERY likely to happen with availability of the true master for purchase. I certainly can sympathize with the end consumer, because I used to be and still am in the same position. I agree that greedines of some record companies should be moderated - but record companies are what they are - they are not the best, most fair, etc - but they DO ( by now - some did function under real world conditions, providing us with tunes we would like to listen to. Leaving (just) enough for the artists to sustain them.

 

That relationship needs to be rethinked and redistributed - but if you are say a rock band starting out in career, try to get the cut of the bar income during your concert from the bar owner and not just fixed sum for your playing - wish you BIG LUCK with that one. You will face this situation many times prior any scouts from record companies will aproach you.

 

This is approximately how the big picture looks like. I would like to sustain it, improve upon to the best of my abilities given the chance, but certainly try to prevent things that might lead to its eventual demise. I would like to see new recordings of new music by new artist - not n-th re-issue of n-th reissue of say Dark Side On The Moon on next commercially available medium, be it physical or download. Despite liking DSOTM very much.

post #50 of 86
I think it would be better for Schiit to focus on something for the portable market that pulls audio digitally off the lightning connector on the new iPhones,iPods,etc and transfers that to a nice DAC. Maybe a desktop DAC for my Schiit amp, and a portable version for my daily walks smily_headphones1.gif At least it would be more relevant for a larger market than DSD anything...

and this is from someone with the requisite PS3 who ripped hundreds of his SACDs....
post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

If it is digital, it can and WILL get copied - sooner or later. That is the precise reason why I said vinyl will be returning - it is simply not cost effective to copy it.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

If you have a good LP playback system, a computer and a ~250 usb (or firewire) audio device- making a "copy" is literally two clicks harder than playing the LP by itself. Is it as good as the LP? Probably not, but a 24/96 needle drop is usually pretty good.

 

It certainly isn't any harder than ripping an SACD properly.

 

I hope that the recording industry learns to see itself as the built-in promotion for musicians who see themselves primarily as performers in a live setting. Concert tickets support the artists and engineers. Audiophiles will pay reasonable money for higher resolution content, which is an added revenue stream.

 

But the days *everyone* paying $17.99 for 16/44.1 are long over. Vinyl won't replace that.

post #52 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahbickart View Post

This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

If you have a good LP playback system, a computer and a ~250 usb (or firewire) audio device- making a "copy" is literally two clicks harder than playing the LP by itself. Is it as good as the LP? Probably not, but a 24/96 needle drop is usually pretty good.

 

It certainly isn't any harder than ripping an SACD properly.

 

I hope that the recording industry learns to see itself as the built-in promotion for musicians who see themselves primarily as performers in a live setting. Concert tickets support the artists and engineers. Audiophiles will pay reasonable money for higher resolution content, which is an added revenue stream.

 

But the days *everyone* paying $17.99 for 16/44.1 are long over. Vinyl won't replace that.

I should have been more precise. I meant ANALOG copy of analog disc. That is next to impossible, does have loss of quality and costs so much it does not make sense commercially. Ask yourself if there were ANY such copies during the vinyl days. And making good digital recording of vinyl is hard - unless you want to spend 90 % of the time for correcting clicks, pops etc in digital domain. SACD ripping is a much easier process and can result in perfect copy of the original. 

 

Regardless of formats - copying music files is a problem. I agree prices should be reasonable, but ratio of "copied" CDs vs original CDs in some people libraries is 50 :1 and that just is not acceptable. Imagine your proffesion could be copied in this way, slashing your salary to 2% of whatever your current salary. You would start singing a very different tune.

post #53 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Regardless of formats - copying music files is a problem. I agree prices should be reasonable, but ratio of "copied" CDs vs original CDs in some people libraries is 50 :1 and that just is not acceptable. Imagine your proffesion could be copied in this way, slashing your salary to 2% of whatever your current salary. You would start singing a very different tune.

 

Sure, but that's just one side of the coin. If your profession was making copies of book pages for people would you complain when the photocopier gets invented and demand that it be made illegal? Would it be right to outlaw the photocopier to save those jobs? Would doing so be beneficial, overall, to society and the markets involved? These are difficult questions that require a full 360 degree view of the situation which sadly most of the people on one side or the other of the argument don't have. The right to make digital copies is as important as the right to make physical copies which is as important as the right to retain copyright and make a living. This is why the copyright system in America is constantly under such scrutiny, because when its used to ensure fair compensation for original works its a good thing but when it hinders user's rights its a bad thing. Its wrong, in my opinion, to claim that one side of the argument is more correct or more important than the other.


Edited by devhen - 2/28/13 at 7:41am
post #54 of 86

As one possible break in the dam, there is (finally!) another device, other than the PS3, which can play back DSD streams:

 

http://www.teac.com/product/pd-501hr/

 

$799!

 

Supports 2.8/5.6MHz DSD disc playback (dsf format on recordable DVD discs)

 

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/audio/audio-separates/teac-pd-501hr-cd-player-w-5-6mhz-dsd-disc-native-black-5485.html

 

 

For Teac to see a market for DSD, NOT locked to the SA-CD proprietary format is a sign of hope for high fidelity audio delivery!

 

Hopefully, $ony will not shoot themselves in the foot (again! Their own Blu-ray players not playing back SA-CD?? WTF??) by attempting any legal intimidation.

 

As Internet bandwidth increases, DSD streams in dsf format will become a viable delivery channel; burn to DVD-R and play back on the Teac PD-501HR.

 

Me, I simply love the sound of playback from my Korg MR2000S 128fs/5.6 MHz captures!

 

Cleaner than master tapes, as musically satisfying as vinyl.

 

Finally, the pendulum swings back toward hi-fi!

 

I just want my music back in the analog world where it is made and where I live, without being strained through decimation and interpolation! (grin)

post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

Sure, but that's just one side of the coin. If your profession was making copies of book pages for people would you complain when the photocopier gets invented and demand that it be made illegal? Would it be right to outlaw the photocopier to save those jobs? Would doing so be beneficial, overall, to society and the markets involved? These are difficult questions that require a full 360 degree view of the situation which sadly most of the people on one side or the other of the argument don't have. The right to make digital copies is as important as the right to make physical copies which is as important as the right to retain copyright and make a living. This is why the copyright system in America is constantly under such scrutiny, because when its used to ensure fair compensation for original works its a good thing but when it hinders user's rights its a bad thing. Its wrong, in my opinion, to claim that one side of the argument is more correct or more important than the other.

In principle, I certainly do agree with you. But I worked in music carrier retail ( mainly CD, DVD, some LP ) from 1993-2004 and can recall when and how sales started to decline - and an ocassional visit to a music carrier retail shop ( do you know of ANY pure CD non LP shop that still has its doors open? ) would lead you to believe people have ( almost ) stopped listening to music. Of course, there are legal downloads - but how many times over they are outstripped by illegal ones and copied CDs/DVDs no one knows for sure.

 

I am pretty close to a person who at least has a bit insight on both sides of the coin. I wanted to post a comparison from real life that anyone could understand, yet it if from forbidden topics on head-fi. But it boils down to people conscience - there IS a certain percentage of those who will breach

the rules/conventions/contracts/etc no matter what - for material gain. Unfortunately, the ONLY possible course of preventing copying the real digital master is simply by not making it available at all. If you do not do it - somebody else will. Sad, but true.

 

While still in the retail, I approached representative from Disney when their original products will be made available in my country. "When you will make copyright issues right". You can rest assured Disney will not sell a single product here until everything is in order according to them. Yet they certainly can not protect copying their material say even in the USA - do not seem likely they will pursue each and every individual for making a copy or two for their own use. 

post #56 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHStudios View Post

As one possible break in the dam, there is (finally!) another device, other than the PS3, which can play back DSD streams:

 

http://www.teac.com/product/pd-501hr/

 

$799!

 

Supports 2.8/5.6MHz DSD disc playback (dsf format on recordable DVD discs)

 

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/audio/audio-separates/teac-pd-501hr-cd-player-w-5-6mhz-dsd-disc-native-black-5485.html

 

 

For Teac to see a market for DSD, NOT locked to the SA-CD proprietary format is a sign of hope for high fidelity audio delivery!

 

Hopefully, $ony will not shoot themselves in the foot (again! Their own Blu-ray players not playing back SA-CD?? WTF??) by attempting any legal intimidation.

 

As Internet bandwidth increases, DSD streams in dsf format will become a viable delivery channel; burn to DVD-R and play back on the Teac PD-501HR.

 

Me, I simply love the sound of playback from my Korg MR2000S 128fs/5.6 MHz captures!

 

Cleaner than master tapes, as musically satisfying as vinyl.

 

Finally, the pendulum swings back toward hi-fi!

 

I just want my music back in the analog world where it is made and where I live, without being strained through decimation and interpolation! (grin)

Great! Can TEAC also play files from external HD via computer, besides burnt to DVD ?  You know the inconvinience of having to constantly import/export files to Korg recorders, as whatever the internal HD capacity, it is always too small. I know a Mytek or similar unit would be more suitable for my use, but having a physical disc and not requiring a computer also does have its appeal.

post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

But, but, but statement DAC production is expected to be sometime in 2013. 

 

That reads nothing but ambiguity. Haha. It has to be a DSD DAC, right?


When in 2013?

 

Thanks!

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------

dietas rapidas y efectivas

post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by liliana3210 View Post


When in 2013?

 

Thanks!

At least before 2014.

post #59 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post

At least before 2014.


biggrin.gif

post #60 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

Great! Can TEAC also play files from external HD via computer, besides burnt to DVD ?  You know the inconvinience of having to constantly import/export files to Korg recorders, as whatever the internal HD capacity, it is always too small. I know a Mytek or similar unit would be more suitable for my use, but having a physical disc and not requiring a computer also does have its appeal.


From "reading" through the manual in Japanese (with images of the setup UI) it does not appear to allow direct streaming playback.

 

There is the Teac UD-501 @$849 which does handle DSD stream conversions thought USB but requires a computer or media server.

http://www.teac.com/product/ud-501/

http://www.audiostream.com/content/teac-ud-501

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632413/teac-reference-line-ud-501-usb-dac-dsd

 

 

My excitement stems from being able to distribute music in DSD directly to consumers on disk! This player opens that door, bypassing the SA-CD mastering bottleneck, creating opportunity for small studios, such as mine, to distribute the highest distribution quality directly to consumers, in contrast to having the highest quality reserved only for mastering engineers.

 

I am cognizant of the attitude of the record companies but their business model simply has to change! Software piracy has not killed the viability of the software industry. The attitude of the mp3 generations is partly from the cold facts that their economic prospects are grimmer than their predecessors, partly due to the artificial high pricing model of CD's, partly the diminished creativity in mass market, music as industrial marketing production, and partly due to the convenience factor.

 

If a new, direct from the artist with no big gatekeeper corporation middleman, distribution model was available at a high enough quality in fidelity and musical value, that would allow for 30-40% piracy ratios and still be feasible.  Why shouldn't the music "industry" have to adapt to the brave new world without using totalitarian statutory "law" to coerce consumers into conformity?

 

Without belaboring the idea, just as movies have more worth and interest in the beginning of their distribution, where theater and DVD/Blu-ray sales peak and then diminish (and the movie industry does not appear to be dying as the "record" industry is), high quality "disc casts"/web casts of new material from artists actually making new music good enough to create ENOUGH DEMAND for quality reproduction, could design the business plan to milk demand up front and allow enough profit, where the majority of honest consumers would pay a reasonable fee to own media and/or for permanent rights to cloud-based, highest quality DSD streams, to cover the "losses" from the projected sales estimated from fantasy land.

 

The latter would allow easy policing of direct, lazy piracy and easy cutoff for those detected doing indirect piracy. If an honest consumer could pay $5-7 for an "album" for DSD quality streaming, versus $1 per itune for lousy quality, there would be a viable market.

 

The software industry business model re-emphasizes the classic free market principle of: he who serves the most people wins the most money, period. The current trend of big record industry corps aligning with or indeed funding the creation of totalitarian statutory traps aimed to coerce an ever shrinking consumer base into conformity, is death in slow motion. Sell to more people, lower the cost and have profits anyway!

 

 

Back on topic:

The Teac is not inexpensive, at initial pricing around $799, but as a high quality disk spinner, worth it for the niche that care about high fidelity.

 

I am reading this as a positive sign, that Teac sees a viable niche market for high fidelity in a world currently dominated by zombie-consumption by the mass-mind of eviscerated, music-as-symbols or cyphers abused primarily to maintain an entranced disconnection from life.

 

High fidelity music represents the exact opposite of course: enabling an esthetic experience that can reconnect us to our spirit and to passions deeper than the mindless pursuit of materialism.

 

Provided of course, that the music and performance itself is aimed into the heart and not merely designed for superficial mental distraction!

 

Not a perfect solution but a positive step in the right direction! regular_smile%20.gif


Edited by PHStudios - 3/6/13 at 12:12pm
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