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= Hifiman HE500 & HE400 Jergpad Mod v2.5 = - Page 41

post #601 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post


Time will tell, Jerg. As of now, I'd have to agree with disastermouse. Also, I'm not sure I'd call it shouty, it is just past shouty, frequency wise, I think. Especially happens with s'es, but it does not seem like traditional sibilance.

Some time I might try some stock pleathers and velours.

If I am to guess, it could be the combination of the dip at 2kHz and the rise between 4~8kHz that makes upper midrange more present than with stock. The interesting thing is that even then the measurements are not out of place, meaning objective evaluation would indicate that the upper mids are a tad darker than neutral.

post #602 of 1702

Ooops, it is 3 am, I could swear it was 1:30 am just a moment ago eek.gif

 

Just tried with some classical that I like. I think what is happening, is that the sibilance and some of the frequencies a bit below where the main sibilance is located, has shifted a bit upwards frequency-wise. Actually like the freq response shows.

post #603 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Ooops, it is 3 am, I could swear it was 1:30 am just a moment ago eek.gif

 

Just tried with some classical that I like. I think what is happening, is that the sibilance and some of the frequencies a bit below where the main sibilance is located, has shifted a bit upwards frequency-wise. Actually like the freq response shows.

The sibilance I'm most sensitive to are the "tss" and "shh" and "zz" and "pff" of vocals, if those sound natural (like how they sound in real life) then I'm happy. I hate unnaturally rounded-off lack of sibilance as much as unnaturally pronounced sibilance.

 

This is important in instrumental music too, where too little sibilance and you lose the splashy "spark" with cymbals and percussion and such, too much sibilance and you feel a distinct "grain" in brass and string instruments.


Edited by jerg - 3/30/13 at 6:18pm
post #604 of 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

The sibilance I'm most sensitive to are the "tss" and "shh" and "zz" and "pff" of vocals, if those sound natural (like how they sound in real life) then I'm happy. I hate unnaturally rounded-off lack of sibilance as much as unnaturally pronounced sibilance.

 

This is important in instrumental music too, where too little sibilance and you lose the splashy "spark" with cymbals and percussion and such, too much sibilance and you feel a distinct "grain" in brass and string instruments.


I am positive my problem isn't too much sibilance, but rather a tonally shifted sibilance. I probably just need to adjust to it.

 

Do you use equalizer or anything like that? Objectively a +2dB in the treble on the e17 shouldn't hurt, I guess.

post #605 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post


I am positive my problem isn't too much sibilance, but rather a tonally shifted sibilance. I probably just need to adjust to it.

 

Do you use equalizer or anything like that? Objectively a +2dB in the treble on the e17 shouldn't hurt, I guess.

I don't understand what you mean by "tonally shifted sibilance", sibilance is due to energy in the 8k~10kHz, there is no shifting. If anything sibilance should be less prominent, since it's pretty apparent with the measurements that the 10kHz peak is noticeably flattened out with the mod.

 

No, I used to do tons of parametric EQ, but HE500 especially with mods gets to a point where I feel absolutely no need to EQ anything. +2dB or -2dB treble would just throw the tonal balance off.


Edited by jerg - 3/30/13 at 7:38pm
post #606 of 1702

Ooops, I meant that when I hear sibilance, it seems a bit different in tonality. Not that the sibilance itself is different, but the frequencies between 'almost past shouty' to 'somewhat below the sibilance' seems to have more energy. This is something that shows up when I hear sibilance, leaving the tonality of a sibilant consonant changed.

post #607 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Ooops, I meant that when I hear sibilance, it seems a bit different in tonality. Not that the sibilance itself is different, but the frequencies between 'almost past shouty' to 'somewhat below the sibilance' seems to have more energy. This is something that shows up when I hear sibilance, leaving the tonality of a sibilant consonant changed.

Ah ok, so basically you perceive the notch at 6.5kHz being filled up via the modifications.

post #608 of 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

Ah ok, so basically you perceive the notch at 6.5kHz being filled up via the modifications.


Possibly, yes. It sounds about right tongue.gif Like disastermouse I don't really like the resulting tonality as of now, but everything else about the modification is positive.

 

I found out about the missing hour, anyways. Summer time (you have that in the US?), just lost an hour, ya know.

post #609 of 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post


I am positive my problem isn't too much sibilance, but rather a tonally shifted sibilance. I probably just need to adjust to it.

 

Do you use equalizer or anything like that? Objectively a +2dB in the treble on the e17 shouldn't hurt, I guess.

Maybe the open back of the phones of jerg makes the sound a bit different? David..do u have the backsides of the cups open as well? Just thinking with u guysbiggrin.gif

post #610 of 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post

Maybe the open back of the phones of jerg makes the sound a bit different? David..do u have the backsides of the cups open as well? Just thinking with u guysbiggrin.gif


Yup, they are vented, but that is not the cause. I don't think it directly changes the frequency response.

post #611 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifimanrookie View Post

Maybe the open back of the phones of jerg makes the sound a bit different? David..do u have the backsides of the cups open as well? Just thinking with u guysbiggrin.gif

Nah, the grill mod adds airiness to the upper registers, but it's not anything drastic enough to change the frequency response.

 

What Davidsh and Disastermouse observe are raw changes in FR (as shown by the measurements done by purrin) where the region between upper mids and lower treble is flattened with the modifications, giving more energy and coherency to that part of the sound spectrum.

 

I'm beginning to think the huge notch at that region of the spectrum with stock might have caused (at least partially) the dark "cavernous" / "cupped"-sounding nature of HE500, that some people complained about.


Edited by jerg - 3/31/13 at 11:48am
post #612 of 1702
Hi, i have He-500 from about two weeks, and i'm learning how different pads sounds: about this mod, anyone tried to use Beyerdynamic velour pads ( that seems to be more confortable) instead of hifiman's ones?
post #613 of 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

Nah, the grill mod adds airiness to the upper registers, but it's not anything drastic enough to change the frequency response.

 

What Davidsh and Disastermouse observe are raw changes in FR (as shown by the measurements done by purrin) where the region between upper mids and lower treble is flattened with the modifications, giving more energy and coherency to that part of the sound spectrum.

 

I'm beginning to think the huge notch at that region of the spectrum with stock might have caused (at least partially) the dark "cavernous" / "cupped"-sounding nature of HE500, that some people complained about.


I have always thought the cupped sound wasn't really missing frequencies, but rather resonances and sound deflecting the pads. My thought is, that the notch causes the HE-500 to have a darker and more laid back signature whilst maintaining a somewhat neutral treble sparkle.

post #614 of 1702
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post


I have always thought the cupped sound wasn't really missing frequencies, but rather resonances and sound deflecting the pads. My thought is, that the notch causes the HE-500 to have a darker and more laid back signature whilst maintaining a somewhat neutral treble sparkle.

I did some surgical EQ tests earlier today to simulate the FR differences between stock velours and modded pleathers in the midrange region, based on the measurements. The parametric EQ program allows for instant A/B comparison of EQ1/EQ2 or EQ/no EQ, with its A|B button.

 

 

 

If you compare this to the measurement plots, you can see that it more or less reverts the midrange FR of my jergpadded HE500s to that of approx stock velours.

 

The subjective listening results are interesting:

 

- The difference is very subtle, in fact I could not discern any difference with/without this EQ for most tracks

- The revealing tracks for this EQ turn out to be male vocals, e.g. James Blunt "Goodbye My Lover".

- The perceived difference is that the "stock velour simulation EQ" gives a slightly lusher tonality to the male vocals (2kHz bump) but at the same time a slight nasal/congested quality (6kHz notch); without EQ, the male vocals become a tad drier and more focused, and becomes less nasally and congested-sounding.

- Fatigue level with tizzy music / female vocals are close to identical between the two modes, as in close to none.

- Overall without EQ, it just sounds more cohesive and whole to me; my ears cannot justify how the EQ is good in any way.

 

Note that I did not account for the treble differences with and without the modifications for the EQ profile, as that is irrelevant in my comparison.

 

And yes, from this little test it does seem as though the "cupped-sounding" issue is not a byproduct of the FR, but something else. I can't imagine the (relative to jergpads) nasal quality of the stock FR helping with the cuppedness issue though.

post #615 of 1702

Good job, Jerg. I must try myself some time. FR-wise I'd agree with your observations from my experience. Never saw the vocals as dry, though, but good word to describe the effect.

 

How do you change the width of the EQ points/bands? I can't seem to do that, maybe I have another version of electri-q? Mine is the same edition, though.

 

You think the velours sound cupped, they do not to me? The pleathers does, on the other hand. Sounds a bit like being hit by a wall of sound.

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