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Evshrug's "If I knew then what I know now" discussion journal. - Page 2

post #16 of 213

Your missing out.  All the best music happens above 15khz.  basshead.gif

post #17 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

 

There's nothing thrifty about $400+ headphones.  :\

 

So, listening to 19khz tones '"sounds awesome"??  Do dog whistles also sound awesome?

 

blink.gif

There is when I saved $100 (on my car insurance by switching to Geico [sorry, had to]) on them, instead of paying $500, I paid $409 (with shipping). No, it's a ton for a pair of headphones, but you know, they are pretty much perfection to me. I love everything about them. They are well worth the money, even with my crappy soundcard.

Mr., you're misquoting (no pun intended) me! Idk if I can hear dog whistles. I meant the 10hz below 20hz sounds awesome. 19KHZ isn't pleasurable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessPFG View Post

I'm 22, and I can only hear just under 15 KHz on a flat EQ. That's a bit distressing, since I usually don't like loud noises and steer clear of most noisy environments.

 

My ears are also a bit unbalanced at certain points across the frequency spectrum. Kept thinking it was an issue with my headphones 'til I noticed the exact same imbalances across ALL of my headphones...

 

Ultimately, no matter how good my headphones of choice get, the ultimate bottleneck in the audio chain happens to be my own two ears.

Oh wow. I always envisioned you being older. So intelligent for such a young age. Anyway, dang dude! Odd.

How sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

SoAmusing77,
You might want to consider your next audio "purchase" to be a trip to an audiologist. I'm not sure how much that would cost, but assume like +$100. You only get one set of ears, and if they're pretty good now you ought to do your best to keep them that way!
Some say that ringing in your ears is a sign of a frequency dying out. I have no proof of that though.

Yup, I'm gonna go very soon. Insurance will cover it. Yeah, I'd really like to keep my hearing, as my love for music is unrivaled!
Yeah, that could be true. Ringing in the ears is never good.

post #18 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

You're missing out.  All the best music happens above 15khz.  basshead.gif
You're kidding, right? How high do your ears hear? Are those the sounds your avatar is yelling about?
post #19 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


You're kidding, right? How high do your ears hear? Are those the sounds your avatar is yelling about?

 

How dare you correct my grammar! tongue_smile.gif  Who do you think you're?

 

My avatar is a shot of me listening to the complete and total sonic bliss of music that only takes place above 15khz - which you'll never hear!  evil_smiley.gif

post #20 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

How dare you correct my grammar! tongue_smile.gif   Who do you think you're?

My avatar is a shot of me listening to the complete and total sonic bliss of music that only takes place above 15khz - which you'll never hear!  evil_smiley.gif
@_@

@.@'`

ToT sorry!!!
... but aren't your headphones the black ones?
post #21 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

... but aren't your headphones the black ones?

 

 

...ph34r.gif

post #22 of 213
Thread Starter 
<3
By the way, I changed my avatar a while back because you said it needed more explosions, but I never heard if it lived up to your expectations? I recommend looking at it big, the reflections on the wet asphalt are preeeetty.
post #23 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

<3
By the way, I changed my avatar a while back because you said it needed more explosions, but I never heard if it lived up to your expectations? I recommend looking at it big, the reflections on the wet asphalt are preeeetty.

 

Yes, the explosions are nice, but they are too tiny.  Perhaps some cropping?

 

post #24 of 213

Okay, at Evshrug's request here is my comparison between MyEars 3D Audio and Dolby Headphone (DH):

 


MyEars vs Dolby Headphone (Click to show)

 

I'd read conflicted comments on which was superior or if there was any real difference at all between the two, I tried MyEars out with the PC360 because my X1's had not shown up by the time I wanted to test it out - therefore I had a set of cans that are known for having a great soundstage and positional audio and have used Dolby Headphone from my Mixamp with them for several years.

 

MyEars has a fairly lengthy set-up process that must be completed with each set of cans that you want to use with the software (it took me around 30 minutes though I rushed the latter half of it) and is only compatible with PC audio, whilst the creators did say they were going to get console audio working it seems that all development has ceased. Judging by their Facebook and Twitter feeds it looks like it never really took off so there was little reason for them to continue working on it.

 

So, how did it sound once the set-up was complete? Superb, well in terms of positional audio at the very least. I allowed myself to get accustomed to MyEars for a while before I A/B'd between it and DH, I found that whilst DH is very clear on sounds that are coming from in front of you it isn't so great with rearward sounds (again, this could well just be with the PC360). MyEars was great at simulating a true 7.1 enviroment in terms of speaker placement but it fell flat on it's face when compared to the soundstage of DH.

 

I don't know about other people but the moment I press that DH button on the Mixamp the soundstage grows immensely which I like very much and find that it's more pleasing to my ears during games compared to the more intimate presentation that stereo sound delivers. MyEars sounds like you are wearing some ridiculous contraption that has somehow allowed you to position seven speakers around your head, DH sounds like these speakers are spread out around the room as they would be in a real surround sound set-up.

 

Initially I thought I would end up using MyEars for competitive play (which I don't do very often) and DH for everything else, that was until I noticed the distortion. MyEars seems to distort certain frequencies in the upper-mid to treble region for me (this isn't something I have seen others complain about) - this is most noticeable when characters are speaking, whilst I could have coped with a smaller soundstage this was the final nail in the coffin for MyEars. I am by no means disappointed by DH but I now know that it can be bettered for at least positional audio.

 

 

post #25 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulch36 View Post

I'll repost the comparison on your thread in just a bit, had a read through your first post and couldn't agree more with your comments regarding what works for each individual - it was that fact that drove me to really want to try MyEars, if everyone could come up with their own profile that works then it would be possible to have a baseline to work with in order to compare the other technologies with (ie if a custom MyEars profile is the best that surround sound can get for me then how does CMSS-3D compare for me, how does DH compare etc).

This would of meant that we got of put together some kinda MyEars profile repository for newcomers to try, they try each profile to find out which works best for them and then see what general surround sound tech worked best for the person who made that profile (so if MLE made one and a newcomer found that his profile worked best for them then they know that DH is the way to go). That way, someone who is new to the tech could pretty much gurantee it will work for them to at least some degree.

I tried out the video in your thread and it actually made the audio sound most similar to MyEars but without the distortion that I suffer from. I found another Youtube video comparing CMSS-3D and DH, this confirmed my thoughts about DH somehow making the soundstage sound wider to me - I would place CMSS-3D in between MyEars (ie smallest soundstage, worst audio quality but best positioning) and Dolby Headphone (ie largest soundstage, best audio quality and worst positioning) but would say that the audio quality differences between DH and CMSS-3D are EXTREMELY minor (ie in the video comparing the two I heard some very slight distortion when the window washing platform hit the ground on CMSS-3D that wasn't there with DH).

I would definitely say that CMSS-3D gives me better rearward positioning as well, I would say I get something like 240 degress of surround sound from DH compared to a full 360 from CMSS-3D but again this is only based on these two videos. Vertical positioning is also better in CMSS-3D for me though I'm guessing this is expected, I'm assuming from the '3D' bit that it's meant to simulate height in audio as well - the scene in the Crysis video where the shuttle aircraft goes overhead sounded better in CMSS-3D.

The video comparing DH and CMSS-3D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ApNLMmeAs&list=UUqM-oxfSa1Z_BRgEq5amQUQ&index=21

^ Actually, I just noticed your posts in the comment for that video!!!

What I'm tempted to do now is scrap the idea of getting a DG and get a Creative card with CMSS-3D or SBX/THX surround built-in, that way I can do a direct comparison between that and DH over a variety of games/media. I can also try out Silent Cinema at some point though that will not be for several months, I have a Yamaha reciever that supports it back home but I always just used my actual 5.1 set-up with that. If I can make the soundstage a little bit wider from CMSS-3D (hoping my amp might accomplish this) then I would be 100% satisfied with that.

I'm assuming that the card the guy in the video is using supports both CMSS-3D and THX based on your exchange with him in the comments?

Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD offers both CMSS-3D and THX, but THX is only in "entertainment mode" instead of incorporated into Game Mode as it is in the Recon3D models. SBX is incorporated into the main audio suite of the new Z-series models too, in fact the software is arranged almost exactly like the Recon3D models (though the Z-series cards are of higher-spec). I haven't heard the Ti HD implementation for myself to be sure, but I suspect that it's different, and people speculate that THAT Crysis 2 video is set up wrong anyway. Mad thinks DH sounds unusually echo-y in that vid. I don't know for sure, which is why I didn't include the video in my guide, would be AWESOME if Nameless would post a sample with his Ti HD setup.

Just to say, I found Silent Cinema to have a good 360 degree soundstage, but the way it works isn't particularly subtle and typically has a fair bit of reverb. It actually does a good job of creating an even, wide soundstage, but THX on my Recon3D USB just sounds more refined and natural. Samples WILL happen someday, just... Sometimes I procrastinate biggrin.gif Like right now, I want to type my next article, write a review for the E12 portable amp, make a YouTube video presentation of the AKG Q701, figure out how to record 3D surround samples, help an amp manufacturer with a project, apply at a Temp agency... But mostly I'm waiting to hear back from friends if I'll be included in a Superbowl party (US football/wussie-rugby championship).

When I/we do make good samples of surround tech, I'll make a fresh "article" in this thread so people can reference it easily. That's the whole point of this thread... Making useful discoveries (and discussions) easy to access & use as reference.
Edited by Evshrug - 2/3/13 at 1:26pm
post #26 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD offers both CMSS-3D and THX, but THX is only in "entertainment mode" instead of incorporated into Game Mode as it is in the Recon3D models. SBX is incorporated into the main audio suite of the new Z-series models too, in fact the software is arranged almost exactly like the Recon3D models (though the Z-series cards are of higher-spec). I haven't heard the Ti HD implementation for myself to be sure, but I suspect that it's different, and people speculate that THAT Crysis 2 video is set up wrong anyway. Mad thinks DH sounds unusually echo-y in that vid. I don't know for sure, which is why I didn't include the video in my guide, would be AWESOME if Nameless would post a sample with his Ti HD setup.

Just to say, I found Silent Cinema to have a good 360 degree soundstage, but the way it works isn't particularly subtle and typically has a fair bit of reverb. It actually does a good job of creating an even, wide soundstage, but THX on my Recon3D USB just sounds more refined and natural. Samples WILL happen someday, just... Sometimes I procrastinate biggrin.gif Like right now, I want to type my next article, write a review for the E12 portable amp, make a YouTube video presentation of the AKG Q701, figure out how to record 3D surround samples, help an amp manufacturer with a project, apply at a Temp agency... But mostly I'm waiting to hear back from friends if I'll be included in a Superbowl party (US football/wussie-rugby championship).

When I/we do make good samples of surround tech, I'll make a fresh "article" in this thread so people can reference it easily. That's the whole point of this thread... Making useful discoveries (and discussions) easy to access & use as reference.


Interesting, in all honesty I'm pretty much sold on the Titanium HD - as I said elsewhere I wanted a decent dac to go with the amp at some stage, the THD seems to be one of the few Creative cards I can find that features RCA outputs (would rather use my existing interconnects that rely on a 3.5mm to RCA cable) and the DAC is well regarded. It's also a fair bit cheaper than a dedicated external DAC and saves on desk space.

 

Judging from Creative's site it does seem that SBX and THX are at the very least similar if not the exact same, I doubt SBX would offer any real improvement. As for Silent Cinema: I don't like the idea of a reverb filled sound but in all honesty it wouldn't be practical for me to get another reciever even if I find that I prefer it over the other solutions anyway.

 

American Football is actually increasing in popularity quite a bit over here, I have a few friends who play for the University team that invited me to come round for the Superbowl earlier but I've got too much programming to do...

post #27 of 213
Thread Starter 
SBX and THX surround do seem very similar, don't they. I'm torn between the Ti HD and new SBX models myself, as I think it would be awesome to hear CMSS-3D in full glory (plus that soundcard has the widest game compatibility and broadest software feature set of any soundcard), but the new Z series have upgraded hardware and I really do like the THX surround. In the end, though, I can't afford new stuff just now.
post #28 of 213

SBX and THX is virtually... the same thing.

 

Creative basically had enough of paying THX for their branding and decided to just rebadge their control panel as so to avoid un-needed charges.

The other reason is also because more and more on-board audio solutions are starting to incorporate THX's control panel (and it looks cheap too), this does not do Creative any marketting favors at all.

post #29 of 213

I've been on a similar mission here of late. Years ago I owned a set of wireless Pioneer DIR-800cs with the Dolby Headphone processor. I loved them. I couldn't enjoy true 5.1 sound all of the time because I was in an apartment and these really hit the spot/filled the gap. I wore them out. They fell apart, as did the base unit (one too many drops maybe and I traveled with it too).

I'll leave my reasons for this mission out but the bottom line is this: Sometimes I want to watch movies with headphones and I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on too much by not using my actual 5.1 setup.

The mission has led me to audition 3 headphones thus far: HD-558s, DT990 Pros and the HE-400s. I won't go into details as that's been done but I've come away preferring the HE-400's sound even though they are exponentially heavier than the DT990s and not nearly as comfortable (and twice the price).

As for headphone surround I have tried 2 "hardware" solutions and numerous software solutions (my primary device for movies is a home theater pc but I also have a 360 for netflix/games). Hardware-wise I have tried Silent Cinema and a Xonar DG w/ Dolby Headphone (which may well be considered software). Software wise... DH in foobar, the old Isone Surround plugin, J River's built-in downmix, etc.

I was hoping to love Silent Cinema. For the most part, it's the ideal solution (everything pipes through the receiver and it decodes DTS/DD,etc). I've found the HE-400s are not driven well by my receiver alone and have thus acquired an E17 to audition (and soon, an Asgard). To enjoy SC though I need to effectively double amp. I get a pretty clean signal as far as I can tell but have found myself underwhelmed by SC - if I'm being picky...and I am. I have fiddled with all of the DSPs available and their parameters. I find that vocals are often muffled and I just don't think SC does a very good job of faking surround sound.

I was hoping the Xonar's DH would impress me more- at least it would cover 90% of my needs, leaving only the 360, which I could use SC for if need be. I've tried all 3 rooms (I used to stick with room 2 on the Pioneers). Again, underwhelmed. Vocals were better but aside from that... it wasn't worth the hassle involved to use audio from the card itself. It sounded less muddled compared to SC but not enough to justify how inconvenient it is to use (because my HTPC is buried in a closet and I have to fiddle w/ software to make use of the secondary card).

Right now I'm testing the original Isone Surround plugin (http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_jb.htm) in J River Media Center. I dig it. I've tweaked it some and I'm using a couple of other J River DSP's to assist EQ (increasing center channel volume, etc). It's very immersive and all and all, I really, really like it. J River is not what I normally use for watching movies (MediaPortal) but it's the only one with out of the box VST support. I'm still using the trial so... we'll see.

I also tried ripping the audio tracks from some sample movies and processing them with DH in foobar and then muxing them back in. It sounds good - primarily because I was able to use the channel mixer plugin in conjunction with DH but what a pain! Not a viable solution.

Sorry this is long-winded but yea, it's been interesting so far. I can't believe there's not a better hardware solution between something like the MixAmp (the lack of DTS decoding hurts) and the BD Headzone that's > $1,000 ... or the Smyth Realizer.

You've piqued my interests with the THX/X Fi card. I hate to spend anymore money to try it but...it's tempting, especially with the RCA outs. The Xonar only has SPDIF so should I settle on the Asgard, I wouldn't be able to use it without a DAC. Mo' money...

DTS Headphone:X sounds interesting but all I've really read was fluff. Apparently it impressed the crowd at CES. I doubt we'll ever see it take off.

post #30 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskaz View Post


Sorry this is long-winded but yea, it's been interesting so far. I can't believe there's not a better hardware solution between something like the MixAmp (the lack of DTS decoding hurts) and the BD Headzone that's > $1,000 ... or the Smyth Realizer.

You've piqued my interests with the THX/X Fi card. I hate to spend anymore money to try it but...it's tempting, especially with the RCA outs. The Xonar only has SPDIF so should I settle on the Asgard, I wouldn't be able to use it without a DAC. Mo' money...

DTS Headphone:X sounds interesting but all I've really read was fluff. Apparently it impressed the crowd at CES. I doubt we'll ever see it take off.

 

I agree completely, if the Headzone was 1/5th of it's current price I'd be very tempted indeed but I managed to get a THD for £95 including delivery (no idea how that translates to US pricing for the thing but that's nearly half price over here) so I'll see how I get on with that.

 

If I decide I prefer DH then I'll be doing something along the lines of: THD (Optical) > Mixamp > Headphone Amp for games/movies and THD (RCA) > Headphone Amp for music.

 

I'm not interested in the least when it comes to the Realizer or DTSX because there is so much effort involved in setting them up, the room I use my headphones in would be incredibly awkward to set up 5.1 speakers in let alone 7.1 and I doubt that many others would have the patience to do it either - the majority of people I've spoken to scoffed at the idea of spending 30 minutes making a MyEars profile.

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