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Is it possible to improve the USB as a cable for audio purposes? - Page 4

post #46 of 93

If the fact is untrue, please be constructive and supply the name of the computer that did. Regardless, whoever was the absolute first doesn't really change the gist of my comments on universal vs.proprietary connections and the ironic nature of Apple's marketing strategies over time. I don't want to argue either, but my comments were ultimately critical of Apple's modern strategies, and instead of talking about that manipulative marketing strategy, now we're talking about a tangential detail regarding a tiny window of time that is moot to the crux of my statement. You're taking the thunder away from my criticism of Apple's proprietary model. 


Edited by Strangelove424 - 1/30/13 at 2:02pm
post #47 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove424 View Post

If the fact is untrue, please be constructive and supply the name of the computer that did. Regardless, whoever was the absolute first doesn't really change the gist of my comments on universal vs.proprietary connections and the ironic nature of Apple's marketing strategies over time. I don't want to argue either, but my comments were ultimately critical of Apple's modern strategies, and instead of talking about that manipulative marketing strategy, now we're talking about a tangential detail regarding a tiny window of time that is moot to the crux of my statement. You're taking the thunder away from my criticism of Apple's proprietary model. 

I can't seem to find who was the first to use it, maybe it was just available as an add-on at first. But the official release of USB 1.0 was in 1996, two years before(I was wrong when I said 3 earlier, that was just the RC) Apple started using USB 1.1 in 1998.

 

But sorry, didn't mean to steal your thunder. I do agree with the rest of what you said. I hate proprietary stuff and it is funny how Apple pushed against it just so they could end up making their own kind.

post #48 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy4 View Post

 

But sorry, didn't mean to steal your thunder. I do agree with the rest of what you said. I hate proprietary stuff and it is funny how Apple pushed against it just so they could end up making their own kind.

Thank you, that's what I was saying. You are probably right when it comes to the IBM compatible motherboard or PCI market - in my experience, home builders have access to the latest and greatest before anybody else, but as far as I know, the first pre-built retail computer with USB was a mac. 

post #49 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


If the cable is not a factor in the operation of the USB standard, then it doesn't matter. You don't need to try different cables.

 

Okay so the answer is no, you haven't tried... Which makes your comment invalid.

 

There are so many of these USB Cable threads on here and other forums, and what I've noticed is that the people who claim USB cables make no difference are usually people who haven't really bothered to try different cables. They immediately dismiss any differences in digital cables (did someone say placebo?), as the signal is either there or not 1011010101! It's not quite that simple, your audio signal doesn't get transferred from one end to another magically untouched.

 

I think it's good to be open minded in this hobby and try things out for your self.

post #50 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caution View Post

 

Okay so the answer is no, you haven't tried... Which makes your comment invalid.

 

There are so many of these USB Cable threads on here and other forums, and what I've noticed is that the people who claim USB cables make no difference are usually people who haven't really bothered to try different cables. They immediately dismiss any differences in digital cables (did someone say placebo?), as the signal is either there or not 1011010101! It's not quite that simple, your audio signal doesn't get transferred from one end to another magically untouched.

 

I think it's good to be open minded in this hobby and try things out for your self.


Of the two USB pins that transfer data (the other two for power), one needs to be <0.3V , the other  >2.8V if its a 0, and reverse if its a 1. It doesn't care what type of signal it is, its all data.

 

Please explain what a cable will improve here.

 

Once you can establish a causation between the cable and this signal transfer, I'll consider your arguments of trying out different cables.

post #51 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caution View Post

 

Okay so the answer is no, you haven't tried... Which makes your comment invalid.

 

There are so many of these USB Cable threads on here and other forums, and what I've noticed is that the people who claim USB cables make no difference are usually people who haven't really bothered to try different cables. They immediately dismiss any differences in digital cables (did someone say placebo?), as the signal is either there or not 1011010101! It's not quite that simple, your audio signal doesn't get transferred from one end to another magically untouched.

 

I think it's good to be open minded in this hobby and try things out for your self.

No, it is that simple.

 

As I was trying to say earlier with my corn syrup cable: If you know enough about something where it's obvious that it doesn't make a difference, you know that you don't have to bother trying it. Digital data transfer isn't that simple to you. That doesn't mean others don't understand it and know what they're talking about. Quite frankly, to me the idea of some kind of super USB cable is just as probable to make a difference as one coated in corn syrup.

 

It's really easy to see the result of poor digital data transfer in comparison to a working connection. Just get a digital antenna for your TV. Unlike analog, you either get a perfect image, a totally ****ed up image, or no image at all.

post #52 of 93

I dont really feel like there is much point in arguing more than the fact here that USB is like a postal service... if we dont consider damaged goods on the way then everything arrives as expected.

theres no 'loss' or obvious degradation of the product...

 

there is loss and degredation if the inbetween equipment is damaged or the usb cable is damaged though.


Edited by jake120 - 1/30/13 at 5:11pm
post #53 of 93

I can see this thread heading for a locking. 

 

I think there are many systems where the most common USB cable is the best solution.

post #54 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJHeadfi View Post

I can see this thread heading for a locking. 

 

I think there are many systems where the most common USB cable is the best solution.


I wouldn't mind. There are so many other threads on the same topic.

post #55 of 93
Thread Starter 

After 4 pages it seems the USB is rock solid as a standard and a testament to modern engineering.

 

Hence where it's time for Psycho acoustic improvement; What's a prettiest/most impressive LOOKING cable?

 

I'm pretty sure I can get some "lookalike"* Nordost cable sheaths combined with some separate, real wood USB head enclosures. 

 

 

+

 

 

 

 

Rub the cables and enclosure in vanilla extract and some heavily scented oil(something woody to give it an analog feel).

 

6moons will go nuts

post #56 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caution View Post

I think it's good to be open minded in this hobby and try things out for your self.

 

But you don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out, which is what those USB cable makes a difference believers are doing as they are going against every scientific and engineering concept and laws which were used to build these things.

 

Here's a thought exercise for you - if USB cable makes a difference a lot of your computer accessories simply aren't working properly either.  For example if we are to believe this claim that USB cable makes a difference, if you connect an external harddisk via USB using a "cheap" cable can you be sure that the data you are transferring is not untouched?  Maybe that important accounting spreadsheet you've been working on has a bit flip and the number changed!  Think of the implication of this claim for a second and come back to tell us why you still think the cable makes a difference, and then we can talk about being open minded or not.

post #57 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caution View Post

 

Okay so the answer is no, you haven't tried... Which makes your comment invalid.

 

There are so many of these USB Cable threads on here and other forums, and what I've noticed is that the people who claim USB cables make no difference are usually people who haven't really bothered to try different cables. They immediately dismiss any differences in digital cables (did someone say placebo?), as the signal is either there or not 1011010101! It's not quite that simple, your audio signal doesn't get transferred from one end to another magically untouched.

 

I think it's good to be open minded in this hobby and try things out for your self.

 

I have tried quite a few different USB cables: Monoprice, Belkin, BlueRigger, Link Depot, and whatever came with may DAP, Amp/DAC, printers, and cell phones. Standard compliant USB cables are very common given its wide range of applications.

 

I cannot say I heard differences in sound quality through my gear (or other people's gear) by using the above mentioned USB cables.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJHeadfi View Post

I can see this thread heading for a locking. 

 

I think there are many systems where the most common USB cable is the best solution.

 


I wouldn't mind. There are so many other threads on the same topic.

 

Yes, it sort of gets old.


Edited by ultrabike - 1/30/13 at 11:14pm
post #58 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanaholic View Post

 

But you don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out, which is what those USB cable makes a difference believers are doing as they are going against every scientific and engineering concept and laws which were used to build these things.

 

Here's a thought exercise for you - if USB cable makes a difference a lot of your computer accessories simply aren't working properly either.  For example if we are to believe this claim that USB cable makes a difference, if you connect an external harddisk via USB using a "cheap" cable can you be sure that the data you are transferring is not untouched?  Maybe that important accounting spreadsheet you've been working on has a bit flip and the number changed!  Think of the implication of this claim for a second and come back to tell us why you still think the cable makes a difference, and then we can talk about being open minded or not.

 

Sorry... But have you looked at how USB audio is transferred? Transferring data from a HDD and transferring audio over USB use 2 completely different transfer protocols. One has error correction, the other doesn't, one is time sensitive, one is time insensitive, one has guaranteed retransmission, the other doesn't. Have a guess which one is which. I'm not sure how this goes against science and engineering concepts... Read below

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


Of the two USB pins that transfer data (the other two for power), one needs to be <0.3V , the other  >2.8V if its a 0, and reverse if its a 1. It doesn't care what type of signal it is, its all data.

 

Please explain what a cable will improve here.

 

Once you can establish a causation between the cable and this signal transfer, I'll consider your arguments of trying out different cables.

 

 

 

Okay, so here's an example. Let's say you have a cheap cable with less then adequate shielding between the data and power lines, It's a well know fact USB power from a computer is dirty (or are we going to deny this too?), what happens if you put these 4 lines together in a cable? Will they not interact and impact each other? What happens with the square wave that is being sent through the cable? Chances are the square wave won't look the same when it reaches an end point (your dac) as it did from your PC. 

 

The digital signal is actually carried in an analog format represented as 1s and 0s, it's not some voodoo magic binary medium that is infallible to alteration.

post #59 of 93

huh?????

 

USB follows a data communications standard... IEEE standards.

 

audio over the USB cable is digital it is transfered digital to the digital receptor at the other end :)

hence the need for DACs...

 

analog signal is a far different look on a ossiliscope as opposed to digital, the differences are clear cut, you can get a sine wave from analog but didigtal works on small negative and possitve bursts on the graph that represent 0 and 1's and they have start and stop bits so the other end knows when to start getting ready plus buffers built in.

post #60 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caution View Post

 

Okay, so here's an example. Let's say you have a cheap cable with less then adequate shielding between the data and power lines, It's a well know fact USB power from a computer is dirty (or are we going to deny this too?), what happens if you put these 4 lines together in a cable? Will they not interact and impact each other? What happens with the square wave that is being sent through the cable? Chances are the square wave won't look the same when it reaches an end point (your dac) as it did from your PC. 

 

The digital signal is actually carried in an analog format represented as 1s and 0s, it's not some voodoo magic binary medium that is infallible to alteration.


The other two cables (power) are maintained at 5V and ground, and if what you say is happening inside a cable, the USB transfer will fail, or stutter (if the contact is intermittent).  If it doesn't fail, then its going to work fine. Thats the point of digital. 

 

To give you a better idea. This is what a bad analog TV signal looks like:

 

 

Have you ever seen this on a digital TV signal? 


Edited by proton007 - 1/30/13 at 11:32pm
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