Do I REALLY need a DAP?

I'm struggling with a serious case of upgraditis! Over the past 18 months, I've spent some hard earned on upgrading IEMs. Starting with a couple cheaper V-Moda phones I've gone, Ety HF-3 > UE TripleFi 10 > Shure SE535 > Westone 4R > Shure SE535LE (red ones). I also have some Bose QC15s for travel and Shure 840s for monitoring my keyboard practice to save my neighbour relations.

For music listening which I guess I spend about 10-15 hrs per week, I use my smartphone mostly. I recently updated from an iPhone 4S to iPhone 5. I mostly listen to Jazz, Indie, and 70s rock plus some classical. While my favourite albums are mostly mp3 ripped at 320kps, I recently Rockboxed an old iPod Classic and have re-ripped many in flac. I can listen to them on the iPhone using Accudio Pro which does seem to offer pretty fair EQ options too. But I also listen to Rhapsody and Pandora for variety. I do have a Fiio E17 DAC but only use this at home. I don't carry with me for airplane use and the like. It seems a good unit but frankly I can't really hear much difference to the headphone outs of my current sources.

Recently, my upgraditis has me wondering if I should purchase a decent DAP. Been considering a Cowon Z2 or Sony NWZ1070. But could also consider iBasso DX100. Trouble is, the iPhone is just so convenient and both it and RB'd iPod sound pretty darn good. And of course as good as the W4Rs are (my favourite IEMs), although some would say get customs, I am unlikely to do that anytime soon.

I've pretty much read most threads on these DAPs and I just don't seem to ba able to draw a conclusion that the sound quality of any DAP is going to be that much superior to my sources. There is just an apparent lack of emperical data and objective comparisons to guide me. Another reason I am skeptical about jumping further is my hearing is no longer what it once was with some serious loss in higher frequencies and about 30% overall.

So, guys, I'd really value some thoughts you might have one way or the other as to whether a DAP is justified by a very noticeable improvement in playback, or is it like using a higher end computer chip. The price seems out of proportion to the benefits they bring...? I mean I just wonder if I will REALLY notice a big improvement or just another way to blow money? Help me please?

Cheers,
John

Thanks for the replies so far guys... And of course the differences of each is exactly the reason I am unsure of the real situation. In particular the last two posts seem to highlight the dilemma. The confusion arises because opinion on iPods and iPhones as adequate or even good sources vary greatly, yet no none seems able to quantify how much worse they are than a dedicated DAP. Worse, I can't simply audition alternative sources with my music here,

Yes, 15 hours doesn't seem much, but when I do I like quality. And actually my listening environments are 75% at home, 10% while exercising and 15% while traveling. At home, I use my AV receiver and speakers for an hour or so each night and then change to headphones later in the evening to give my neighbours and wife a break. Then I like listening via a portable source as I can get up and move about without being tethered to an amp. Even when I use the amp, I'm using a digital source as the storage of my music collection is so accessible that way from either tha NAS or via AirPlay, or our Sonos service. So a decent DAP is appealing IF it is discernibly better than the iPod or iPhone when privately monitoring. BTW, the iPod is a 6G 80gb Classic I think, although some seem to refer to this as a 1G Classic as the predecessor seems to be the iPod Video if I have the series correctly identified. As I said this is Rockboxed, but since I usually listen to my music flat EQ'd I doubt I am getting any if at all difference to the apple firmware but I can listen to Flac lossless this way.

As far as expense goes, I am 60 and well enough off that spending a few dollars on my hobby is not really a consideration. But I am respectful of money enough that I don't like wasting it either. So long as I get something like a 10-15% improvement that can be detected, I am okay. My othe reconsiderations are that the storage is reasonable given I use flac and 320kps MP3sas sources and don't really want to be constantly uploading albums to the DAP. That adds to the dilemma here in Australia. Sony, only sells the 16gb Z series Walkman. And it has no storage upgrade path. Stupid in my view. And the Android 2.3 OS on each of the Cowon Z2, Walkman Z and iBasso DX100 is variously described as clunky and slow and so on. Certainly my iPhone 5 is brilliant in terms of a convergent device. If the sound is comparable to a High end DAP I wouldn't bother. I wouldn't bother with a low end DAP either simply because I am looking for perfection and that's the very reason I've purchased so many IEMs. I should have just started with the Shures or one of the Westones right from the beginning. I intend to avoid this with the DAP.

One I have just got in my sights today is the iRiver, Astell & Kern AK100. This is clearly built for one purpose. HQ audio. No video, camera, photos, wifi, web browsing, phone, or all the other stuff my iPhone does perfectly. Just audio and with what seems to be a decent Wolfson DAC chip and small form factor. Plus 2 micro SD slots on top of 32gb on board. The reviews I have found all describe its audio as top drawer, and one can change volume, pause and navigate tracks via buttons and a knob without relying on a touch screen although it has that too. It doesn't come with headphones and all the other bells and whistles, so although expensive at $700.00, hopefully all the money goes into audio reproduction.

So here I am ready to spend that sort of money but the levelling comment is from one reviewer (PCMag) who while lauding its sound quality, flattens my enthusiasm with this and I quote:

"But up against lossless 16-bit/44.1KHz tracks coming out of an iPhone 5 with the same headphones, the AK100 sounds just a *little* better. Today's Android and iOS devices come with high quality headphone jacks and amps inside."

Now I can't see why this device wouldn't sound on par with say the DX100 iBasso given the many favourable reviews of its SQ, but if correct, this reviewer's take is exactly the reason I question the "value" proposition over my iPhone.

H2Ofidelity is a member whose opinions I highly regard given the many posts of his I've read on his forum, and clearly supports buying a DAP, even a cheap one like the C2 Colorfly, yet I can't see why I'd bother unless it sounds every bit as good as one of the high cost ones playing 16bit lossless and again significantly better (by that I mean easily discernable) over my Apple devices.

So H2O, which of these would deliver to my expectation based on the foregoing, Colorfly C2 or CK4, Cowon X7, X9 or Z2, Sony NW-Z1070 (Japanese 64gb model), iBasso DX100 or the Astell & Kern AK100, or stay with my current Apple iPod and iPhone? Or choose something else altogether?

Anyone else who wants to chime in, please do....

Thanks in advance.

Really appreciate that input.... Started to go through that long thread to check out the story. Be a shame if the AK100 cannot be adequately used with my IEMs. I must admit without yet reading the relevant posts I am wondering why there should be a problem. My SE535s are rated at 36ohm and the W4R are 31. IRiver actually recommend the SE425s which are dual BA IEMs vs triple and quads for the 535 and W4R respectively. I guess it will become clear as I read on,

Of course, my E17 does have optical in so I could get around it if necessary with that and I am really thinking the DAP is for home use rather than out and about when my iPhone would be with me anyway. Some reading and thinking to do...

At least I now think I have to reconsider the iBasso.

Thanks again

I have done a bunch of reading on this high output impedance issue, not just on the AK100 but on the so-called 1:8 rule. And the more I read and experiment I am drawing the conclusion that there is some hysteria about this. Bear in mind this is a conclusion I've drawn from others inputs not from any qualified expertise. But I think most of us on Head Fi qualify as armchair experts rather than audio engineers although some of the posts that support my conclusions are from qualified persons and that's why I have out my faith in my findings.

Please understand, H2O, I am not having a go at you. Your warning was very much appreciated and welcome as you realise I don't want to waste my money and I am sure much of the concern is valid where people may use very low impedance IEMs with the AK100 and even iRiver warn against that. And I wouldn't like to destroy some $400 IEMs I can tell you. The warning has caused me to read more on the topic an will help me with my choice.

Fact: My Yamaha RX-A3000 receiver has a headphone output impedance of 100ohms. I've used it from time to time but admittedly not a lot as I don't like running cables across the floor. Now I've used for the most part my Shure HRH840 full size phones with it. That's only 44ohms. Driving 100 through it has never caused an issue with them. So I've tried a bunch of IEMs through it this morning and not a moment's concern nor am I getting strange soundstage and the like.

And doing some more reading and research, my AV is pretty normal with older amps having much more. Some apparently upwards of 4-500!

As one guy said I the older amps with modern headphones thread, too many people seem to be listening with their eyes rather than their ears.

Now back to my DAP. If the iBasso DX100 was without its issues, it would be a no brainier. But there's heaps of people with issues with it too. And frankly its bigger than I would want to carry around. Plus I just don't need all the fluff that comes with it. The AK100 is just so right sized and there seems to be enough good comments to counter the doubters to give it a try. So I have one coming. Will report back here and on the AK100 thread with my thoughts including my view on the impedance issue.

These are all good points that deserve comment from my perspective...

Our climate here is very warm and humid. Cans are just too hot to wear for lengthy periods. The Shure 840s are a great can but my main reason for having them is as monitors for private playing and practice on my keyboards...I'm a home only musician. These give as flat and natural a sound as I could find. I mostly use the QC15s on long haul flying. About 4-5 trips per year. But in recent times I've found good isolating IEMs like my W4Rs and SE535s do a pretty good job of keeping most unwanted noise out and infinitely more comfortable than full cans. The reason I've had so many IEMs is because real enjoyment of good IEMs started with the TripleFi Pro 10s and while I was quite happy with them, I tried out the 535s on a trip to the US 18mths ago and liked them better. I only got my W4rs in September again while in the US. I purchased the special edition 535s even more recently and passed my bronze ones on to my wife. I mostly toss between the SE535SE and W4Rs depending on mood and music. The Westones are superior for classical and instrumental while the vocals are the territory for the Shures for me.

I have an AK100 on the way so I may as well try that out now. I read though most of the long thread on it and no disrespect to H2Os mate Lee but I feel he is caught up in technicalities seems to be disregarding people who own this DAP and too stuck on this impedance issue when he hasn't either heard them IIRC or at least tried different IEMs. Not saying charts lie, but I have looked at a few and I think many comments about high frequency variations can be discounted because the average human adult hearing is between 40Hz and about 12KHz. Note that most music and percussion is in the range of 40Hz and about 4KHz (the highest note on a piano is only 4,000Hz. Above 12KHz, most of us won't hear anything anyway. I note that much of the graphs provided are fine in normal hearing ranges.

I'll know tomorrow...


As I said earlier, some seem to be listening with their eyes rather than their ears. I'll soon know if I've made a mistake...

Guys,

 

Been living with my AK100 for a few days now and so far I like what I have bought. H2OFidelity, I appreciate why you warned as you did but my listening experience has not been like the warnings in the AK100 thread. Frankly, I found the 90 pages hard going because there was a heap of OT posts and very few from anyone who owns one. So everything tended to be subjective opinion and not very constructive. I may do a more comprehensive review sometime in the future, but in the meantime I have posted a none too flattering reply in the AK100 thread which sums up my findings and my opinions. I don't see why I should not join in seeing as opinions are like a##holes, every body's got one... here's my take... post #1341

 

Cheers all and Happy New Year.