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*Comparison and Review* Magni/Modi vs O2/ODAC - Page 16

post #226 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Any and every thread that mentions the Objective Amp or DAC will eventually leads to people arguing and citing the O2/ODAC measurements.

 

It's like Godwin's Law, but instead of Nazis it's the measurements.

Well, that's the whole point. The damn thing is called the Objective amp for a reason. Durrrr

post #227 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGame21x View Post

I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.

Short version: I really, really like them. L3000.gif

Thanks for that review!

I have been going back and forth between the Modi and the ODAC, and I just ordered the ODAC this morning. You gave me more confidence in my purchase smily_headphones1.gif
post #228 of 424
Thread Starter 

It's not the ultimate point, it's just something nice to let users of the amp know that nothing is horribly wrong with it.  You'll eventually want to actually listen to your amp to see how well it performs, and not how well it performs given a single 1khz sine wave.  

post #229 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

 

Hey all,

 

Man, it's getting heated in here. Can we be friends? Or am I the devil incarnate, here to lasso your wallet out of your unsuspecting pockets and reduce you to slavering devotees chanting, "schiit, schiit, schiit, more schiit" for the rest of your lives, eagerly forgoing meals and housing so you can simply purchase that next, shiny product?

 

No wait, that's Apple. 

 

Kidding, of course. I own a ton of Apple products, and I can't wait until their new UberRetina $3K laptop is out...no, wait, I also have a Galaxy Nexus. And PCs. Ah, well. Guess that reality distortion field only goes so far.

 

But I did want to address a couple of things here.

 

First, the statements "overall feedback is bad," "class A results in superb performance" and "fully discrete designs are better." We never said any of those things. Ever. Those are value judgements. We have said, "we use no overall feedback designs when we can, we prefer fully discrete topologies, and we do Class A amplifiers," before, but those are not value judgements--those are statements of what we do. If other companies have a different approach to sonic nirvana, then that's totally cool. But, bottom line, we don't build ourselves up by cutting others down. It's part of our principles. www.schiit.com/about/principles

 

Second, I understand that many of you don't like our approach of blending instrumented testing with listening tests, considering that we're, well, a little touched in the head. Or delusional. Or somehow trying to trick you. Or your friends. Or whatever. That's cool, too. I used to be exactly the same. I bought amps on the spec sheet. Then, when I started working at Sumo, I had some experiences that really shook my faith in the measurements. Now, that's not to say the differences in amps and other components are as big as some people make them out to be. That's why we always tell people to put their money in transducers first, then amps and such if they need them later. So, just nod at us old nutters and check out some other great products if our approach doesn't work for you. 

 

Third, high gain on the Magni. Yep. It's not going to be for everyone, and maybe it does reflect our love of planar headphones. We'll temper our language regarding "great for everything including IEMs." Though it is quiet enough for IEMs, I understand that the gain might be problematic if you don't want to use software volume control. That said, Modi is a real 24-bit USB receiver and DAC, so you can definitely run 24 bits in.

 

Fourth, I notice here that someone had a bum Magni. Sorry about that! If you'd wanted another Magni, we would have offered a return/exchange, where we issue a call tag and send a new product as soon as the return is shipped back to us. One thing most people seem to agree on is that our customer service is very good.

 

Fifth, heck, I forgot what I was talking about. Excuse this novel. I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

All the best,

Jason


Edited by Jason Stoddard - 1/17/13 at 8:29pm
post #230 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


Hey, I read the review, good work!

But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!

I did O2 DIY, already had batteries (not used) and suitable wallwart, so it cost me less than $40 including case excluding postage. No probs, just had to measure the resistors 'cos they were too small for me to read the colour code smile.gif. I will be putting my ODAC in the same case when I have the time/energy.


Edited by jimmers - 1/17/13 at 8:41pm
post #231 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

 

Hey all,

 

Man, it's getting heated in here. Can we be friends? Or am I the devil incarnate, here to lasso your wallet out of your unsuspecting pockets and reduce you to slavering devotees chanting, "schiit, schiit, schiit, more schiit" for the rest of your lives, eagerly forgoing meals and housing so you can simply purchase that next, shiny product?

 

No wait, that's Apple. 

 

Kidding, of course. I own a ton of Apple products, and I can't wait until their new UberRetina $3K laptop is out...no, wait, I also have a Galaxy Nexus. And PCs. Ah, well. Guess that reality distortion field only goes so far.

 

But I did want to address a couple of things here.

 

First, the statements "overall feedback is bad," "class A results in superb performance" and "fully discrete designs are better." We never said any of those things. Ever. Those are value judgements. We have said, "we use no overall feedback designs when we can, we prefer fully discrete topologies, and we do Class A amplifiers," before, but those are not value judgements--those are statements of what we do. If other companies have a different approach to sonic nirvana, then that's totally cool. But, bottom line, we don't build ourselves up by cutting others down. It's part of our principles. www.schiit.com/about/principles

 

Second, I understand that many of you don't like our approach of blending instrumented testing with listening tests, considering that we're, well, a little touched in the head. Or delusional. Or somehow trying to trick you. Or your friends. Or whatever. That's cool, too. I used to be exactly the same. I bought amps on the spec sheet. Then, when I started working at Sumo, I had some experiences that really shook my faith in the measurements. Now, that's not to say the differences in amps and other components are as big as some people make them out to be. That's why we always tell people to put their money in transducers first, then amps and such if they need them later. So, just nod at us old nutters and check out some other great products if our approach doesn't work for you. 

 

Third, high gain on the Magni. Yep. It's not going to be for everyone, and maybe it does reflect our love of planar headphones. We'll temper our language regarding "great for everything including IEMs." Though it is quiet enough for IEMs, I understand that the gain might be problematic if you don't want to use software volume control. That said, Modi is a real 24-bit USB receiver and DAC, so you can definitely run 24 bits in.

 

Fourth, I notice here that someone had a bum Magni. Sorry about that! If you'd wanted another Magni, we would have offered a return/exchange, where we issue a call tag and send a new product as soon as the return is shipped back to us. One thing most people seem to agree on is that our customer service is very good.

 

Fifth, heck, I forgot what I was talking about. Excuse this novel. I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

All the best,

Jason

Hiya, thanks for chiming-in and providing some insight/clarifications!

 

I've been kind of curious about this (anyone can answer this), what exactly causes the Magni to get warm? From my experiences, Schiit's products tend to get really warm, and people have reported that the Magni does get kind of warm. The Objective 2, gets a teeny bit warm but not to the same "warmth" as what I imagine the Magni does.

post #232 of 424

It's simply the quiescent current in the output stage--in the case of Magni, about 30mA--hardly enough to really get warm. P= IV, where I is .03 and V is 30V--so it dissipates about 2W at idle from 2 channels. I forgot the actual FLIR numbers, but it runs something like 27C in a 20C room.

 

Asgard runs 260mA, for example--but that's because it's a very inefficient Class-A design. That dissipates almost 20W at idle, counting regulation. But the reality is, the outputs on Asgard run much cooler than many outputs run internally on a heatsink--you simply feel the heat because the whole chassis is a heatsink. Asgard runs about 42C in a 20C room. (Hey, we never said Class A was efficient...)


Edited by Jason Stoddard - 1/17/13 at 8:53pm
post #233 of 424
Thread Starter 

Probably the same thing that causes class A amps to get warm.  A lot of people swear by them for sound, but one of their disadvantages is that they're not the most efficient amps, in other words some of the power gets wasted in the form of heat.  Magni is class A/B, meaning it'll have some of the characteristics of class A.

 

And yes, the whole chassis is a heat sink.  It's the 'aluminum iMac effect'.  :P

You wouldn't believe how many new aluminum iMac owners would post in the forums thinking that their computers were overheating because the aluminum shell was doing its job.


Edited by TMRaven - 1/17/13 at 8:56pm
post #234 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


Hey, I read the review, good work!

But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!

 

Thanks for the feedback, and yes, that's a good idea. Will add it!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Thanks for that review!

I have been going back and forth between the Modi and the ODAC, and I just ordered the ODAC this morning. You gave me more confidence in my purchase smily_headphones1.gif

 

Thanks! Glad I could help!

post #235 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

Probably the same thing that causes class A amps to get warm.  A lot of people swear by them for sound, but one of their disadvantages is that they're not the most efficient amps, in other words some of the power gets wasted in the form of heat.  Magni is class A/B, meaning it'll have some of the characteristics of class A.

 

And yes, the whole chassis is a heat sink.  It's the 'aluminum iMac effect'.  :P

You wouldn't believe how many new aluminum iMac owners would post in the forums thinking that their computers were overheating because the aluminum shell was doing its job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

It's simply the quiescent current in the output stage--in the case of Magni, about 30mA--hardly enough to really get warm. P= IV, where I is .03 and V is 30V--so it dissipates about 2W at idle from 2 channels. I forgot the actual FLIR numbers, but it runs something like 27C in a 20C room.

 

Asgard runs 260mA, for example--but that's because it's a very inefficient Class-A design. That dissipates almost 20W at idle, counting regulation. But the reality is, the outputs on Asgard run much cooler than many outputs run internally on a heatsink--you simply feel the heat because the whole chassis is a heatsink. Asgard runs about 42C in a 20C room. (Hey, we never said Class A was efficient...)

 

Ah, thank you for the answers!

 

I'm still new to amps so I'll have to read-up on the different classes of amplifiers. I only know what's taught in basic electrical engineering/bioengineering circuit courses (as in op-amps, what they do, negative feedback is good, how to solve mathematical problems with analog circuits, etc.). What "class" of amplifier is the Objective 2 considered if anyone knows?

 

And yes I totally forgot that the steel chassis is a heatsink....I can totally vouch for the "overheating" Mac effect. I have the original full-aluminum unibody MacBook from 2008 (before they made the Pro version) and watching any YouTube video causes the processor/graphics card area to heat-up to 80+˙C, making the fans spin at maximum speed, and the whole chassis becomes uncomfortable to put on a lap, w00t!.


Edited by miceblue - 1/17/13 at 9:13pm
post #236 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 
 You'll eventually want to actually listen to your amp to see how well it performs, and not how well it performs given a single 1khz sine wave.  

 

+1, couldn't agree more!

post #237 of 424

One thing I keep thinking about when comparing stuff...is its we often compare apples and oranges....the O2 amp has real specific design points that the designer has met and has been confirmed etc...good, bad or indifferent.

 

One of the design points was portability and hence "batteries"....even if we think its not really portable due to its size or weight or you cant get it into your shirt pocket....

 

The Schiit Magni is not a portable amp, and has no batteries etc..by design.

 

That said I think both are good products in their own right...and yes listening to the stuff in your house with your cans is the ultimate test.

 

If your happy great, if not well...

 

But having an amp that was designed to be transparent and meet specs that impact "my" audio nirvana is important to me...

 

All the best

Alex

post #238 of 424

TO ALL: have m/m the sound reproduction is un believeable and all i am listening to is MOG at 320kbps now sounds better than any of cd's even dvd-a's and sacds

even with my 30+yo beyerdynamics DT 990's!!

BUT how do you get the magni to sit flat with pyst rca connections and power cord attached in back and headphone plugged in the front its unequal unbalanced WONT SIT FLAT AT ALL either on top of the modi or on a desk top

AND  in your picture how can you have the modi on TOP of the magni the magni generates heat??

the other pictures on schiit web site and other forums /reviews have to be bogus/computer generated

would appreciate any suggestion on how to get magni to sit FLAT

bobbmd

post #239 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbmd View Post

TO ALL: have m/m the sound reproduction is un believeable and all i am listening to is MOG at 320kbps now sounds better than any of cd's even dvd-a's and sacds

even with my 30+yo beyerdynamics DT 990's!!

BUT how do you get the magni to sit flat with pyst rca connections and power cord attached in back and headphone plugged in the front its unequal unbalanced WONT SIT FLAT AT ALL either on top of the modi or on a desk top

AND  in your picture how can you have the modi on TOP of the magni the magni generates heat??

the other pictures on schiit web site and other forums /reviews have to be bogus/computer generated

would appreciate any suggestion on how to get magni to sit FLAT

bobbmd

A rubberband.

post #240 of 424

dont be an ass-it wont sit flat period

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