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*Comparison and Review* Magni/Modi vs O2/ODAC - Page 15

post #211 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, it could add "better sound" because perfectly flat, transparent sound is not necessarily what everyone really likes. If it was all about perfect transparency, tube amps would not be popular wink.gif

But you are right. If it's already transparent, you can't make it more transparent with additional parts smily_headphones1.gif

Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.

 

The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

Violectric says: "Discrete amplifiers (designed with transistors) are very popular in High-End audio design also for preamplifier stages. This is often marketed as an optimization measure, but the partially exorbitant extra expenses are of course to be paid by the customer. But an op-amp consists of tranistors as well...
Moreover, its structure has the advantage of thermal coupling between its internal components."

 

Other than output power, I don't think the Schiit stack would win the numbers game. The question is why they are so fixated on the points mentioned above..

post #212 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by adydula View Post

cel4145...

There are many tube amps that are not transparent.....far from it...and some I had and are now sold.

Alex

You missed the point smily_headphones1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If it was all about perfect transparency, tube amps would not be popular wink.gif
post #213 of 440

cel 4145...

 

roger, over and out...mybad....

 

Agree!!

 

Alex....now where is that box of tubes gone off to??

 

LOL

post #214 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by adydula View Post

cel 4145...

roger, over and out...mybad....

Agree!!

Alex....now where is that box of tubes gone off to??

LOL

I love my Little Dot I+ tube amp. Definitely not transparent! biggrin.gif
post #215 of 440

I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.

 

Short version: I really, really like them. L3000.gif

post #216 of 440

I say the specs don't tell the whole story its all in how it sounds to you.

post #217 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.

 

The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

Violectric says: "Discrete amplifiers (designed with transistors) are very popular in High-End audio design also for preamplifier stages. This is often marketed as an optimization measure, but the partially exorbitant extra expenses are of course to be paid by the customer. But an op-amp consists of tranistors as well...
Moreover, its structure has the advantage of thermal coupling between its internal components."

 

Other than output power, I don't think the Schiit stack would win the numbers game. The question is why they are so fixated on the points mentioned above..

 

I'm just speculating here, but a lot of companies tend to hide the core and focus on other stuff (Design/Looks/Feel/Experience etc), because it helps them achieve the 'reality distortion field' effect. 

Take a look at this paper : http://dx.doi.org/10.1086/667782

Turns out more knowledge can be a turn off for a lot of customers.

post #218 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGame21x View Post

I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.

 

Short version: I really, really like them. L3000.gif


Hey, I read the review, good work!

But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!

post #219 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Which kinda sums up the different philosophies between NwAv/Schiit.

 

The O2 was designed for the highest possible transparency with a certain budget in mind. First he defined what he wanted to achieve, then he tried different designs, parts etc. until he reached the goal.

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

Violectric says: "Discrete amplifiers (designed with transistors) are very popular in High-End audio design also for preamplifier stages. This is often marketed as an optimization measure, but the partially exorbitant extra expenses are of course to be paid by the customer. But an op-amp consists of tranistors as well...
Moreover, its structure has the advantage of thermal coupling between its internal components."

 

Other than output power, I don't think the Schiit stack would win the numbers game. The question is why they are so fixated on the points mentioned above..

I think you know why different approaches are so energetically defended - money.

 

There is not a great deal of difference, to the end user, between a $400 dollar computer and a $3,000 dollar computer. Good hardware is practically a standard these days, thanks to innovation. Of course, the $3,000 computer is the one to have for some applications, but otherwise, whatever.

 

Audio is pretty much a commodity these days. The higher end I go, the more I realize you get less and less for your dollar. Or it could be that myths are good for business, so they persist. Most of these companies know that if standards compliance became important, they would all be in deep doo doo for marketing overpriced crap.

post #220 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post

I think you know why different approaches are so energetically defended - money.

 

There is not a great deal of difference, to the end user, between a $400 dollar computer and a $3,000 dollar computer. Good hardware is practically a standard these days, thanks to innovation. Of course, the $3,000 computer is the one to have for some applications, but otherwise, whatever.

 

Audio is pretty much a commodity these days. The higher end I go, the more I realize you get less and less for your dollar. Or it could be that myths are good for business, so they persist. Most of these companies know that if standards compliance became important, they would all be in deep doo doo for marketing overpriced crap.


There's no price for exclusivity, and certainly a good way to make money.

post #221 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Any and every thread that mentions the Objective Amp or DAC will eventually leads to people arguing and citing the O2/ODAC measurements.

 

It's like Godwin's Law, but instead of Nazis it's the measurements.

Well, that's the whole point. The damn thing is called the Objective amp for a reason. Durrrr

post #222 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGame21x View Post

I posted my thoughts on the O2 + ODAC on my site, musical musings.

Short version: I really, really like them. L3000.gif

Thanks for that review!

I have been going back and forth between the Modi and the ODAC, and I just ordered the ODAC this morning. You gave me more confidence in my purchase smily_headphones1.gif
post #223 of 440
Thread Starter 

It's not the ultimate point, it's just something nice to let users of the amp know that nothing is horribly wrong with it.  You'll eventually want to actually listen to your amp to see how well it performs, and not how well it performs given a single 1khz sine wave.  

post #224 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

Schiit on the other hand: "Sure, we could throw an opamp in there and get better numbers, but we aren’t just about the numbers here. We believe different amps sound, well, different, and we made our design decisions based on both measurements and listening tests."

 

That's okay. What I cannot stand is the "overall feedback is bad", "class a results in superb performance", "fully discrete designs are better" attitude. Not any of these points is an indicator of high fidelity, quite the contrary.

 

 

Hey all,

 

Man, it's getting heated in here. Can we be friends? Or am I the devil incarnate, here to lasso your wallet out of your unsuspecting pockets and reduce you to slavering devotees chanting, "schiit, schiit, schiit, more schiit" for the rest of your lives, eagerly forgoing meals and housing so you can simply purchase that next, shiny product?

 

No wait, that's Apple. 

 

Kidding, of course. I own a ton of Apple products, and I can't wait until their new UberRetina $3K laptop is out...no, wait, I also have a Galaxy Nexus. And PCs. Ah, well. Guess that reality distortion field only goes so far.

 

But I did want to address a couple of things here.

 

First, the statements "overall feedback is bad," "class A results in superb performance" and "fully discrete designs are better." We never said any of those things. Ever. Those are value judgements. We have said, "we use no overall feedback designs when we can, we prefer fully discrete topologies, and we do Class A amplifiers," before, but those are not value judgements--those are statements of what we do. If other companies have a different approach to sonic nirvana, then that's totally cool. But, bottom line, we don't build ourselves up by cutting others down. It's part of our principles. www.schiit.com/about/principles

 

Second, I understand that many of you don't like our approach of blending instrumented testing with listening tests, considering that we're, well, a little touched in the head. Or delusional. Or somehow trying to trick you. Or your friends. Or whatever. That's cool, too. I used to be exactly the same. I bought amps on the spec sheet. Then, when I started working at Sumo, I had some experiences that really shook my faith in the measurements. Now, that's not to say the differences in amps and other components are as big as some people make them out to be. That's why we always tell people to put their money in transducers first, then amps and such if they need them later. So, just nod at us old nutters and check out some other great products if our approach doesn't work for you. 

 

Third, high gain on the Magni. Yep. It's not going to be for everyone, and maybe it does reflect our love of planar headphones. We'll temper our language regarding "great for everything including IEMs." Though it is quiet enough for IEMs, I understand that the gain might be problematic if you don't want to use software volume control. That said, Modi is a real 24-bit USB receiver and DAC, so you can definitely run 24 bits in.

 

Fourth, I notice here that someone had a bum Magni. Sorry about that! If you'd wanted another Magni, we would have offered a return/exchange, where we issue a call tag and send a new product as soon as the return is shipped back to us. One thing most people seem to agree on is that our customer service is very good.

 

Fifth, heck, I forgot what I was talking about. Excuse this novel. I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

All the best,

Jason


Edited by Jason Stoddard - 1/17/13 at 8:29pm
post #225 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post


Hey, I read the review, good work!

But, for the sake of the enthusiasts out there, maybe you can include the DIY link in the review as well. The O2 comes to ~$100 if one can solder the components, so the DIYers can save some dough!

I did O2 DIY, already had batteries (not used) and suitable wallwart, so it cost me less than $40 including case excluding postage. No probs, just had to measure the resistors 'cos they were too small for me to read the colour code smile.gif. I will be putting my ODAC in the same case when I have the time/energy.


Edited by jimmers - 1/17/13 at 8:41pm
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